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Question for professionaly trained shooters

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by reddeath, May 22, 2012.

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  1. reddeath

    reddeath TS Member

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    I am a selt taught club shooter.
    My son has been instructed by several differant coaches.

    We were working on his shooting one day at the club, and we locked the trap in for hard right cuts and shot from possition 5. He was missing everyone! So I picked up my shotgun and said let me shoot a few and maybe I can explain to you what I do. I took a few shots and told him "I lead the target about an inch"

    He told me that every coach he has talked to told him you never lead the target.
    Is he right?
    Does any shoot without leading the target?
     
  2. Ajax

    Ajax Well-Known Member

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    It appears you shoot with the "Sustained lead" way of shooting. It sounds like you have coaches that use the "Swing Through" method. Either one can be effective if used properly.

    The coaches I have used want gun speed to help the follow through and have taught more of the "Swing Through" method. Some people see the lead and some see no lead at all.

    Ajax
     
  3. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    Somehow, I think this ties in with your other question...


    I suspect he's now trying to compensate his swing to see the lead he's been told he needs..
     
  4. reddeath

    reddeath TS Member

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    BigM

    I am taking the advice posted to my other question, thanks!. But on this one I kinda have to disagree. Once I mentioned leading he tried it for one shot and then never to do so again. He stated the all of his coaches beat the concept of leading out of him.
    Thanks
     
  5. Ed Y

    Ed Y TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    I think that if you know how much lead you're giving the target that you're looking at the bead rather than the bird. I think that this is a problem some of us have, when we lose confidence. I know that, when I'm shooting well, I have no idea where the gun was when I made the shot. When the gun fits properly, you just look. see, and shoot.

    Ed Yanchok
     
  6. Beretta687EELL

    Beretta687EELL Well-Known Member

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    Sustained lead can only work when you know where the target is going. To shoot trap you need to swing through the target, unless you know where it is going. When the machine is oscillating you don't know where the target is going until you see it. You have to react to that, start moving the gun and swing to the target. I've taken clinics with Nora and Leo. A drill they both use is to lock the machine on a hard angle and start shooting the straight away target and then move down the line in a direction to make the target a hard angle. As you get to each post the angle increases until the fifth station where you have the hard angeled target. This exercise is to show how much lead is required to break targets from each post. While doing this you still use your hold point as if the machine is oscillating. They will often not throw a target during this exercise so that they make sure you are not moving the gun until after the target exits the house.

    I think, as Ed indicated, that the concept of lead becomes instinctive as opposed to a visual concept as time and experience grow. Bill Malcolm
     
  7. wolfram

    wolfram Well-Known Member

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    You do need to have the gun pointed ahead of the hard angle target by quite a bit. When you say one inch it sounds like that would mean what appears to be one inch to the side of the bead further implying you sould look at the bead.

    Not good.

    What you want to work on is getting a smooth swing with a equally smooth follow through and the amount of lead is just part of an individual's target picture. How that target picture looks to me will be different that how it looks to anyone else so this isn't something you want to describe in absolute terms.

    Instead of locking the trap to throw the hard angle and then shooting from the far position, lock the trap to throw straight away as seen from post 3. Shoot a couple shots there then move to 4 to get a slight angle presentation. Shoot that post enough to establish this target picture in the students mind, then move to post 5 and work on that station until some confidence is established.

    Now take a break and repeat with some angle added to the presentation. Try about 5 degrees to start. Again a few shots from 3 move to 4 and get that confidence up then finish on 5.

    Then pack it up for the day and come back as soon as possible (next day if you can) and repeat the drill only with a bit more angle on the bird, some thing like 7 to 10 degrees. Keep at this until eventually you are at the maximum angle of 17 or 18 degrees and the student has some confidence in how he sees a working target picture.
     
  8. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    If you do not lead a hard right target from post 5 you will miss it every time. This was proven by your son who did not lead the targets and missed every one of them.

    Inorder to hit an angled or crossing target you aim at a point ahead of the target. When the shot gets there the target will be there too. If you shoot at the target with no lead, by the time the shot gets there the target will be gone. HMB
     
  9. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    It's no wonder it takes so many thousands of targets shot before the average shooter becomes even somewhat skilled at shotgunning!

    I agree with HMB, catching up with a hard angle with an empty gun don't work well for a high score!

    Maybe a better description may be; "shoot where it ain't" instead of shooting where you look!! Shooters can get by shooting directly at a target if their swing speed is perfect all the time. How often does that happen? Not very for most and it takes a long time shooting many targets to come close to making that system work well!

    Two of the newer ladies to trap shooting I've worked with have both won trophies at the Grand American in handicaps! The latter one after only shooting 1100 handicap targets in her life! Merely because someone has paid their money to be called a coach (professionally trained) doesn't mean they know how to teach the art of shotgunning!!

    Hap
     
  10. BIGDON

    BIGDON Well-Known Member

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    If you shot at an angle "it ain't going to be there when shot gets there"

    If you point and shoot you better be pointing ahead of the bird.

    Look at the video's of your better instructors with the gun cameras and they aren't point AT the bird, they are leading or to the side of the bird. There is nothing that says you can't come up in your swing and intercept the bird and shooting at a spot. Quite frankly I use a little of all three depending on the flight of the bird.

    Try and see what works. But show him the videos and he will quit "pointing at the bird" on angles.

    Good Luck.

    Don
     
  11. Lyle

    Lyle Member

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    I think there was a youtube video of Brandon Weeden breaking clay targets with a football and lead is demonstrated.

    One of my friends is and has been an all-american trapshooter and he simply says you have to get in front of the target. Find the front edge and get in front of it. Seems to work for him.

    I can't seem to hit a bull in the ass with a banjo, that is why I am telling you what HE said.

    Lyle
     
  12. romie

    romie Active Member

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    I am not a professional at all but I was told by a coach once you cannot look a bead and a target at the same time > I have proven him to be correct many times when I doubted it.. I can tell you one thing for sure if I'm looking at the edge I almost never miss.
     
  13. guinner16

    guinner16 TS Member

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    Lyle- Above is the link to the video

    I think that actually gives a pretty good idea of how the target breaks. You can see when he hits the target with the nose of the ball he smokes it, just like centering a target. When he hits the top of the target the bottom part doesnt break as well, just like in trapshooting. It is also obvious that he leads the target in order to hit it, which is common sense IMO.
     
  14. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    romie, your coach was only partly correct in his statement to you. It's true you can't look back at a bead/barrel by taking your eyes off the targets leading edge with your central vision! However, you can keep your eyes glued to that leading edge and ""SEE"" the guns bead ahead of that leading edge. You see that lead with your peripheral vision even though your central vision is locked firmly on the targets leading edge!

    Look at a wall picture, look intently at the left top corner, intently, without taking your eyes away from that spot. Can you ""see"" the top right corner also at the same time? That's how you use your peripheral vision to know your on the money side of the targets!! As simple as this sounds, it takes time to learn how to see a target properly as well as "seeing" lead peripherally at the same time!

    Hap
     
  15. MMcVitty

    MMcVitty Member

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    I have taken part in a clinic. We were instructed as follows: on a hard angle you want to think to your self I need to get to the leading edge of the bird before I pull the trigger. If you are swinging the gun correctly and follow through you'll hit. While this isn't explicitly thinking "leading the target", the motion of the gun swing speed will carry the shot through the bird.

    I would ask those of you how are making it sound like huge leads are needed, what kind of shells are you shooting? Most shells are going to be fast enough to hit even a hard angle in ATA. That's why long handicap shooters shoot faster shells.

    While the football demonstration demonstrates the concept of leading, no one shoots a shell that slow. If you do, you might want to load a little more powder.
     
  16. maka

    maka Member

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    Brit Robinson made a vidio in old vcr formate. In it he explains about leading the target. For example he explains about how a foot lead might be equall to 1 barell width when looking down the barell at the target. Haven't seen this video for several years so my memory might not be accurate? I hope you sort of get the gist of what Robinson was attempting to explain.
     
  17. Jack L. Smith

    Jack L. Smith Member

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    Weeden football/target video.

    What I see is the target hitting the football, not the football being thrown to lead and hit a target. If you look closely, there is no change in distance, and the thrower is standing at the same yardage marker each time.

    A real trap target is moving away and changing speed. The shooter to target angles are never at 90 degrees or even close, in trap.

    In the video, the football is thrown at a right angle to intersect the clay at predetermined point. I believe many of us could do the same thing. This is timing, not leading.

    For us, or a young shooter, especially a newer shooter, it is better to watch the Phil Kiner video, or Leo's, or other's eye cam's to get the best perspective of lead and angle/lead.

    I think the trap machine in this video is the star for hitting the football 4 of 5 times.

    js in PA
     
  18. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    JS, that's skeet busting with a football.:)

    Lead is lead whether it's 17 degrees or 90 to make two separate thingies intersect and collide at the right time!

    Hap
     
  19. Jack L. Smith

    Jack L. Smith Member

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    Hap, well, I still think this is timing not leading. The football video is mis-leading to compare to trap shooting:)

    js in PA
     
  20. Shawn

    Shawn Member

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    Watch the video and you will see the targets and the lead required to break them. Leo show the difference in lead for a right hand target off three and a right hand target off five. Does an excellent job explaining lead and follow through.

    Maybe this will help a bit.

    Shawn
     
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