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Question for Neil Winston re: mixed shot sizes

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Rvator97, Nov 20, 2009.

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  1. Rvator97

    Rvator97 TS Member

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    Neil: Recently purchased a few bags of what I thought was new Northwest brand #7.5 shot at my local club. (Paid $30/bag). While looking at the shot container on my Mec, I noticed quite a variation in the size of the shot. I poured some out on the table and found size 6, 7.5, 8, 9, and even some birdshot!
    How would this affect the pattern? When shooting this ammo at the 27yd line, I've had a more than usual number of those misses when you think you put the right move on the bird and are surprised when it does not break....... any thoughts? Thanks, Walt
     
  2. ffwildcat

    ffwildcat TS Member

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    Do the same test with another brand - you will be surprised at the mix of sizes. Same goes for cutting open factory shells. Although I will grant Northwest does have a bigger variance in sizes than the others I have used.
     
  3. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it will make much difference, Walt. There is a theoretical consideration, though, and it goes thus. Now consider that #9 shot-pellet over there in the dish. Will that break a target virtually every time? If so, what are you using all those 8's and 7's and so on I see in your mix? If the nine will do the job, then you are just sacrificing pattern density - and so birds every now and again - by not using the smallest size that works.

    However, we can't answer that question about virtual certainty of a target break with 9's, or anything else as far as I know. There may be instances when a bird, hit just so, may need an 8 to disgorge a chip, and in these cases, then it's the 9's which are reducing pattern density, since if they don't work, they may as well not be there.

    I wouldn't worry, but on the other hand, I'd buy a different brand next time.

    All shot is made up of mixed sizes, but some makers are pretty good about this and some less good. I've always figured that if they are careful about keeping shot size pretty close, they probably are about the alloy of the shot too.

    Neil
     
  4. Rick Barker

    Rick Barker Well-Known Member

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    Didn't Remington at one time sell a duplex load where they had different size shot in the shell?
     
  5. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    Rick Barker

    Remington most certainly did. I guess it didn't work so well, since they discontinued it shortly thereafter. Either that, or they just continued to load them the same way and not advertise the shot size variations.
     
  6. short shucker

    short shucker TS Member

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    One of my shootin' buddies decided to screen 4 bags of namebrand shot prior to loading them. This is the same stuff that he's been reloading for years. We warned him not to do it as this guy can shoot a lick at any given clay target game.

    The bags were all labeled #8 magnum shot. So 100 lbs of screened shot yielded 72 lbs of 8 shot, 10 lbs of 7 1/2's, and 18 lbs of 8 1/2's and smaller.

    He then preceeded to mix the shot back together and threw away the three screens that he had purchased for this little escapade. He vowed never to do anything so foolish ever again and almost painted the shot bottles on his Mec black.

    His shooting didn't suffer, but he sure thought about that for a day or two.

    ss
     
  7. JACK

    JACK Well-Known Member Supporting Vendor

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    Great story shucker
     
  8. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    ss- Do you know where your friend got the screens? I have looked for them many times. I ended up making my own that work reasonably well but not good enough to consistently separate 7.5 and 8 shot. I am very surprised that when he separated the 100 pounds of shot it came out in exactly even pounds of three sizes. When I have tested shot, using two pieces of glass, I find all sorts of sizes between 7.5, 8 and 9.

    Pat Ireland
     
  9. Hitapair

    Hitapair Active Member

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    Pat, MIA may have had it right: Good Story w/ the emphasis on story!
     
  10. Big Jack

    Big Jack Well-Known Member

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    Someone once told me that Remingtons duplex loads started when a vendor dumped a big supply in the wrong hopper. Was easier to sell them mixed then to try to seperate them and the shooters tried them without question. Never know if you don't try.

    Big Jack
     
  11. AveragEd

    AveragEd Well-Known Member

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    Actually, the two shot sizes in Remington's Duplex loads were not mixed; one was layered on top of the other with the larger, heavier shot on top of the smaller, lighter shot. The larger shot retains more inertia and thus looses velocity at a slower rate than the smaller shot and would destroy patterns if it was under the smaller shot.

    I was told by a Remington rep back then that they stopped making those loads because they weren't great sellers. A lot of trapshooters who reload, and that's a fair percentage of the total, want to put a reload recipe in the hulls from the factory loads they buy that is at least similar to the factory load so they are always shooting roughly the same recipe. A duplex load would obviously be tedious to create on equipment like we use. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Remington's cost to produce them was higher, as well.

    Ed
     
  12. Ray Brasser

    Ray Brasser Member

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    Years ago I intentionally mixed 6's and 7-1/2's trying to get a better load for those long-range Annie Oakly games. When I patterned them on paper, the patterns were terrible. Lots of gaps and open spaces. Then I tried it the Remington way with 5/8-oz of 7-1/2's on the bottom and 5/8-oz 6's on top. The patterens were much better. I realized then why Remington did it that way rather than just mix the 2 shot sizes. After that experiment, I've always believed that when you mix shot sizes you get a lot of flyers, especially with the smaller shot. Granted, I was pushing the shot 1350fps. That can contribute to flyers too. But there was a significant difference between the patterns.

    Maybe Neil can make up some loads with mixed shot sizes and some loads with uniform shot sizes and take them out to the pattern board. That would be very interesting.

    Ray
     
  13. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    You know, Ray, that's a great idea. Today it's Super-Lite powder kindly supplied by Jim Forsbach, but if it stays nice, I 'll try to get to your suggestion. Thanks for the idea; you'll get credit.

    I did a mixed powder test once, Red Dot and Herco as I remember. It favored the Herco in speed and pressure, as i remember. Since I've never found a difference in 7 1/2's and 8's, I'm not expecting anything spectacular here, but that's why we do tests, isn't it?

    Neil
     
  14. short shucker

    short shucker TS Member

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    I have no idea where the screens came from, but the cost was somewhere around $100 10 yrs ago. The only reason why I remember this is because he said it was like holding a match to a $100 bill and watching it burn.

    The weights were achieved using a dial bathroom scale. I'm sure that he rounded the numbers just to make it easier.

    Whether or not y'all belive it, is up to you. I'm just telling you what happenend.

    ss
     
  15. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Ed is right. And Remington magnum Duplex loads were popular with some turkey hunters, and they search for old boxes of these shells at gunshows to add to their stashed supply. They wear they work.

    Others say "meh" and stick to more readily available "ordinary" turkey shells.

    One thing about getting #6 shot mixed in. My club bans the use of show larger than 7-1/2 because it travels further, and in our now urbanized setting we can't have that, especially on the sporting clays field which is closer to backyards.
     
  16. fssberson

    fssberson Active Member

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    Walt: Give me a call the next time you will be at the range and I will bring out the chronograph. Some of the problem may be your powder drops have changed and the velocity, which affects the foot pounds of pressure delivered by the shot, may have changed. As I remember you use 19.6 of Interantional... I use the same in my 1 1/8 oz. Single loads with 8's. Now the other aspect is that it takes 2.5 foot pounds of pressure to break a target... 7 1/2's deliver that down range, but the smaller shot bleeds off the foot pounds down range... but you shoot so darn fast that it should not make a difference for you. Let's start by measuring your powder drop and then chronograph the shells. Fred
     
  17. Rvator97

    Rvator97 TS Member

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    Fred: I use 19.2 of WST..... we chronoed some recently and they averaged about 1180fps. Walt
     
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