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Question for Neil or anyone? POI

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by gordy h, May 14, 2013.

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  1. gordy h

    gordy h Member

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    I've patterned lots of my guns with the 13 yd system.It works. A friend came over with a new o/u and when he tried, it shot very high.(out of 5 times he had 10 to 15 pellets below the line,8"high)the comb is as low as it will go. He is seeing a fig 8 down the rib. When I tried the shot was 3" high ( I call it 20/80)It must be fit,any ideas? He is a new shooter and would like to help him.
    I've been shooting 40 years,but am by no means a expert at fitting a gun. Thanks Butch H
     
  2. Shawn

    Shawn Member

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    Butch
    Were you both shooting from a rest?
     
  3. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    as I recall Perazzi patterns with the flat of the rib to standardize it.
     
  4. davidjayuden

    davidjayuden Well-Known Member

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    Possibly time for an adjustable comb in order to get him looking flatter down the rib? A good installer can take some wood out when they cut it and actually lower the comb in the process. Also lowering an adjustable butt plate can straighten the head out and get your eyeball (rear sight) down on the rib a bit lower.
    dju
     
  5. gordy h

    gordy h Member

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    yes we shot from a bench rest.
     
  6. Tech Writer Jeff

    Tech Writer Jeff Active Member

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    Let's make sure we understand some of the important details you told us. Please verify the following:

    1. Your friend shot at a pattern board 13 yards from the muzzle?

    2. He was seeing a Figure-8 sight picture when he did so?

    3. But the gun shot 8-inches high at 13 yards? Both barrels did this? (You said it was an over/under).

    If he's already seeing a Figure-8, he can't position his eye much lower than that. At least, not enough to make a significant difference in lowering the POI.

    You did use a full choke, right? At 13 yards, you're not really concerned with analyzing pellets above or below some reference line, so phrases like 20/80 are meaningless at 13 yards. With a full choke, you should be seeing a ragged hole punched through the paper with relatively few of the (remaining) pellets in the shot charge scattered elsewhere on the paper, but still not spread out very much. So, is the tight cluster of shot really 8-inches above the aim point?

    Does the gun have an adjustable rib?

    Also, don't mix up Point-of-Impact tweaking with stock fit. They aren't the same.
     
  7. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Butch H, when you shot your buddy's gun, did you also see the figure 8 bead alignment also?

    It sounds to me like your buddy may be seeing a tad more of a wide open stack then you? IF, both of you are seeing perfectly stacked figure 8s, the shots should be the same POIs within fractions of an inch, not 5 inches!

    Sometimes it's tough to shoot another's gun the same since cheek-bone heights are so different between shooters. My cheek-bone is high and others that try my gun with lower cheek-bns make the gun shoot way too high for them!

    Hap
     
  8. gordy h

    gordy h Member

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    Yes 13 yds.
    yes both barrels
    yes fig 8
    no adjustable rib

    The gun is a sporting clays model with an adjustable comb by Tom Larkin (the stock shop)

    I don't know how to post a picture but may be this will give you an idea of what it looks like at 13 yds. from a bench rest
    .. . .. .....
    . ... .. . . .. .
    . . . . ... .
    . .. .... . .
    . . . .
    . . .
    . .
    +
    . .
    .

    Why do you say stock fit has nothing to do with POI ? Please explain.
    I was told raseing or lowering the comb changes the POI.
    Thanks for all of the help, Butch H
     
  9. ebsurveyor

    ebsurveyor Member

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    Move the comb the direction you want the pattern to move. Sounds like this will be a problem with this gun, you/he will not be able to look down the rib.
     
  10. jhoward

    jhoward Member

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    You may need to look into an add on rib. You can play around with one by going to a hobby store and getting a strip of .25 x .25 balsa wood. Taper it from full width down to nothing. Paint it black and tape it to the rib, putting the .25 end towards the muzzle. This will bring the barrels down in relation to the sight plane and should make the gun shoot lower. If it works, you can look into a more durable, permanent add on rib.
     
  11. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Butch, first let me tell you how nice it is to read about an experienced shooter helping a new one get off to the right start. As you see it takes time and effort and sometimes you run into things you can't figure out, but with the new shooter shooting eight inches high you have to save him or he will surely quit in frustration or trade guns or whatever - some bad choice that could have been prevented with a little guidance.

    Some ideas. Pick any that may apply.

    1. He doesn't know what "stacked beads" means. I don't mean in words, I mean on the trapfield. I remember that it took me a couple of years when I started to get the idea and a friend who started with me still hasn't got it right. What you should do it take a gun that lets you stack the beads in the meaning as you understand it and point it at a mirror and see where your eye is relative to the receiver. My bet is that you won't be able to see the whole iris of your eye, probably only the top 2/3. More or less.

    Then have your student point the empty gun (checked several times and every time he repeats it even when you _know_ it is empty. It's a good habit for him to get into,) at your eye and see how much of his iris you see. If it's 2/3 (or whatever you saw in the mirror) then you at least know that you are using the same meaning when you talk about "stacked beads." If it's different, do whatever it takes to get his eye down some.

    2. He may be jerking the gun up when he fires. You may try light shells or more shots or whatever makes him jerk less. Show him how to squeeze the trigger slowly so he hardly knows when it will go off. If he shoots several high and then one OK, stop and ask him exactly what he saw and felt on that shot. I've seen shooters who think that a whole-body-jerk is normal - look for that too. You can check this by pretending to load the gun and giving it to him to fire (he thinks it's loaded, of course.) Some people just seem to jump out of their skin.

    Whatever it is, Butch, find out and fix it. Only you can save him - and only you will.

    Neil
     
  12. Stl Flyn

    Stl Flyn Well-Known Member

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    Sporting Clays guns usually shoot flat with their stock configurations. When you say bench rest, are you leaning forward, or tipping the head down to get to the stock. I prefer standing next to a post, or pole, mounting the gun while standing, having the forend an inch or so from the pole, and leaning my fingers against it for stabilizing, then firing. This way you are in the position you will be in on the line, along with the gun, and where it will truly shoot. That is if you mount the gun the same every time, which can be checked by the beads.
     
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