1. Attention: We have put together a thread with tips and a tutorial video to help with using the new software. Please take a moment to check out the thread here: Trapshooters.com Tutorial & Help Video.
    Dismiss Notice

Question for Neil and Pat.

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Hauser, Jul 18, 2010.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Hauser

    Hauser Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    860
    Do either of you think the current handicap system needs to be changed to lessen the dominance of 27 yard shooters??


    Jerry Hauser
     
  2. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,863
    Jerry, I think we need more concrete at some clubs. I suspect that it wouldn't be "fair," but it is the only thing that might help.

    I do recognize, however, that if it is "fair" you want you need shorter yardages than 16 too.

    The big, and ultimately insoluble problem, is that the range of skill is so great that no single system can make it "fair." Without classes in handicap, that is.

    Neil
     
  3. phirel

    phirel TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,556
    There does seem to be a problem at a few larger shoots. I do not know how to approach this problem without placing an undue burden on the smaller clubs and I consider the smaller shoots collectively to be more important then the few larger shoots. For at least some, the real problem is not that a few 27 yard shooters are winning trophies, but it is that they are winning money. Perhaps the best solution would be to address the money issue and not the yardage issue. Possibly elimination of the high gun purse and using the Great Eastern Purse would help.

    Pat Ireland
     
  4. Hauser

    Hauser Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    860
    I found some data that I believe Ray Brasser forwarded me several years ago that contains the yardage awarded by each yardage group for one year. Unfortunately there is nothing indicating which year it was but it I believe it was sometime in the early to mid 2000s.


    That data showed there were a total of 14309 yards awarded that year. The breakdown by yardage group is as follows:


    The format is Yardage Group / Number of Yards / % of Total Yards

    19 / 325 / 2.27%

    20 / 2016 / 14.09%

    21 / 1409 / 9.85%

    22 / 1302 / 9.10%

    23 / 1067 / 7.46%

    24 / 999 / 6.98%

    25 / 1037 / 7.25%

    26 / 1022 / 7.14%

    27 / 5132 / 35.87%


    Jerry Hauser
     
  5. Steve W

    Steve W Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    5,118
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Seems like ATA is a 27 yard game, rest of us are just bunch of want to be. :)
     
  6. Ahab

    Ahab Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,651
    Why do you guys keep playing the Open Purse when you don't figure that you have a chance to win it?

    or

    I feel like I am gonna shoot great today ... I am going to plunk down some money on the Open Purse .......... awwwwwwww geeese ... only shot an 89, I was robbed! Think I will complain on TS.com!
     
  7. Gary Waalkes

    Gary Waalkes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2007
    Messages:
    1,402
    The punch numbers tell me the same thing Steve W. sees. What I do not see is how creating longer yardage pads is going to pull the rest of the crew up. The distribution at the top will simply spread out the winners between 27 and 29 or 30. There is nothing in having more concrete behind me that is going to help me shoot better. I bet the same thing has happened each time there was more concrete added.
     
  8. wayneo

    wayneo Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,002
    Don't you think the 27 should pay a higher percentage? It's exponentially harder than the 16. More skill, practice, time, money, concentration, etc. Or should everybody get a trophy like my granddaughters T-Ball??

    Wayne
     
  9. Hauser

    Hauser Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    860
    The data shows the yearly punches are distributed reasonably evenly with the exception of the 20 and 27 yard groups, which indicates the system works as intended except for these two groups.


    Jerry Hauser
     
  10. goatskin

    goatskin TS Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2009
    Messages:
    1,781
    Jerry, the data would be more interesting & telling if there were numbers of shooters a/o count of birds tried per yardage group.
     
  11. mx2k33

    mx2k33 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2007
    Messages:
    1,435
    The problem is not the system or the shooters, but the game. Only tougher targets will work, but then it won't be ATA trap any more.
     
  12. Setterman

    Setterman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2007
    Messages:
    11,159
    goatskin is right. Did the 27 yarders shoot more targets than the other yardages? If they did, no doubt, they would have more punches.

    Do that list again Hauser, but show us total targets shot in each yardage, and by how many shooters.

    I do like the idea of using Midi targets if it's feasible.
     
  13. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,209
    Location:
    Scottsdale, AZ
    The only logical way is to add concrete. Midis, 1oz shells, blindfolds. All of that is BS. Adding concrete is the only way.
     
  14. jbbor

    jbbor Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,036
    There is no rule that says the shooting station has to be concrete. Jimmy Borum
     
  15. TNCoach

    TNCoach Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2009
    Messages:
    579
    It is my believe that it's a matter of dedicated practice on whatever yardage. If you have the skill and practice, you're going to move back...

    If you add a 28 yard line, the 27 yarders will pickup a punch and practice more on the 28 than the rest of the other yardage groups and within 2 years everyone will be griping that the system is broke.

    We had an old gentleman at Nashville that was given a reduction from the 27. He wasn't happy since he had been on the 27 "since time began" and eventually quit shooting caps because he couldn't figure out the angles again without dedicated practice.

    If you want to shake it up, make everyone shoot random yardages. The only change required will be that shooters will have to pay prior to squading.

    My 2 Cents,
    TNCoach
     
  16. dennis b

    dennis b Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    94
    Neil is correct. We need more concrete and we need for some shooters to shoot from a shorter yardage. Pat is also correct that this might hurt some small clubs.

    The shorter yardage is no problem. The extra concrete is the problem for some smaller clubs. Solution - a 30 yard line at only the shoots that award All-American points. And at the All-American shoots, people choose whether to play the open purse option or not and live with the results.
     
  17. dhip

    dhip Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2009
    Messages:
    1,473
    Location:
    westgrove,Pa.
    BOY,,,A LOT of people named PAT and NEIL on this thread,,,LMAO


    Doug H.
     
  18. Hauser

    Hauser Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    860
    I found the complete data base for 2004 and included the total number of punches received by each yardage group. Please remember I'm not sure which year the “% of Total Punches” data is from.



    The format is Yardage / Yardage Total / % of Total Shooters / % of Total Punches


    19 / 3958 / 11.39% / 2.27%


    20 / 13102 / 37.70% / 14.09%


    21 / 3158 / 9.09% / 9.85%


    22 / 2664 / 7.67% / 9.10%


    23 / 2417 / 6.95% / 7.46%


    24 / 2481 / 7.14% / 6.98%


    25 / 2294 / 6.60% / 7.25%


    26 / 1939 / 5.58% / 7.14%


    27 / 2740 / 7.88% / 35.87%


    Jerry Hauser
     
  19. daddiooo

    daddiooo TS Supporters TS Supporters

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    4,004
    Location:
    GEORGIA
    If adding concrete is THE answer, then there will be countless clubs who can't comply due to the lack of space to expand the handicap field. My club is one of those. At the 28 yard mark we're litterally standing in the parking lot. Also where is the incentive for the clubs to make the costly investment of possibly expanding the parking lot to make room to expand the trap fields if that's even possible? ($1 or $2 more to the shooters in this economy??, doubtful) So..... if you can't expand your concrete pads to say 30 yards then we can no longer host registered shoots which unfairly penalizes many small clubs and trap programs. Not to mention the boomerang effect it will have on monies collected by the ATA through daily fees.


    To those who constantly decry that 27 yd shooters win most of the money and trophies....maybe you should practice more, become a 27yd shooter and leave the cap system alone.

    JMHO.
     
  20. perga1

    perga1 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,474
    daddiooo, just put markers in yhe parking lot and make the trapshootibg fatties, and i am one, walk a little to get to the trap. JRM
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.