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Question concerning etiquite and procedure

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Border Bandit, Mar 16, 2009.

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  1. Border Bandit

    Border Bandit Well-Known Member

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    If the shooters are at short handicap, say ~20yd line and the trapper is sitting behind the 27yard line, and does not call lost birds etc. so that the squad can hear, what is the procedure for rectifying this, assuming the squad leader does nothing to address the situation? Can one of the shooters address the squad leader and ask for relief, or does he directly address the trapper?

    Let's go one step further and assume nothing has been done, and one of the shooters discovers upon leaving the last firing position, that the trapper has scored a loss, when there was none, and all other members of the squad agree the bird was dead, but no one on the squad heard the trapper call a lost bird. In this case it was an easy call, since the shooter had dropped but a single bird.

    It happened at the Heart of Maryland shoot at Carney, this past weekend. This not being an ATA shoot and there is no requirement for the squad leader to sign the score card, does the shooter with the improperly scored card have recourse, or is it just one of those T.S. instances, where we learn our lessons, and move on?

    I this case, it is doubly disturbing, since it cost the shooter Lewis money, and perhaps, position as high overall shooter in final league standings.

    Thank you for your thoughts
     
  2. Trap2

    Trap2 Well-Known Member

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    Mike.. Anyone on the squad may ask the scorer to move closer to the shooters to allow his/her calls to be easily heard. Usually, as the squad leader, I will try to make sure the scorer is in the right position to, not only see the targets properly, but, to allow all shooters on the squad the chance to be able to hear their calls. If you are called for a lost target, but did not, in fact, drop that target, the error MUST be rectified before changing posts. It is the shooters responsibility to make sure their scores are called correctly. If all on the squad agree that there was no lost target, the accepted etiquite
    would allow for the reversal of the call, PROVIDED the scorer, or referee, agrees and allows it. Remember, the scorer/referee ALWAYS has the last say. That's the law of the land, and sometimes, it can, and will, go against you. You know the old saying: S#&t happens..... Dan Thome (Trap2)
     
  3. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    Dan -

    To clarify (under ATA rules), scores must be corrected before the first shot on the next post (or before leaving the field in the event of post 5). I always seem to get the guy on my squad next to me who won't leave his square-yard of concrete until he's sure his score is correct.

    I would also disagree with the "accepted etiquitte" that if everyone agrees the score will be changed. The rule is very specific, and asking people about a single target after potentially watching 125 of them is not a reliable way to determine a score. Even though the scorer/refreee has the last say, they can't modify the rules.

    Scott
     
  4. Old Cowboy

    Old Cowboy Active Member

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    Any of the shooters can ask the scorer to call out the scores "louder please".

    Generally speaking the scores won't be changed after the shooters have moved to the next post or left the field after the last post.

    Scott,

    I'm one of those guys "who won't leave his square yard of concrete until he's sure his score is correct".

    John C. Saubak
     
  5. 320090T

    320090T Well-Known Member

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    You don't have to sign the scoresheet either.
     
  6. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    John -

    Why is that? The rulebook doesn't say anything at all about where you must (or must not) stand during a post change or while correcting a error on the scoresheet.

    If your score is incorrect, do you correct it long-distance - you standing on your post and the scorer still in the chair? Never had an occassion to walk back to the chair to clear things up?

    Scott
     
  7. Trap2

    Trap2 Well-Known Member

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    Scott... I am in agreement with John. I, too, am one that won't change posts until the scores have been properly called. Why? I have lost more than one target, when it really counted, because I approached the rules with the same attitude you have. Also, as the squad leader, I prefer to head off any potential problems before they become one. I will continue to occupy my "one square yard" of concrete until I'm positive the scores are correct for every member of my squad, including you. Not a big deal you say? Drop one target that can, and did, cost you $2800.00 because of this error, and you will quickly learn not to ignore it. Also, I have never shot on a squad where, if 2 or more shooters saw a target break, on a lost target call, that it didn't get corrected to a dead target call. It is still a "gentlemens" sport, and while one or two shooters out there may take advantage of a situation such as this. the bulk of us are honest enough to know what the right thing to do is..... Dan Thome (Trap2)
     
  8. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    Dan -

    I think you missed the point I was trying to make. All I was saying that there is nothing illegal, nor do you forfeit your right to correct your score, if you walk from post 2 to post 3 while scores are being called. If they are incorrect, the fact that you left your post has nothing to do with getting them corrected. I'm not sure what you meant about my attitude toward the rules, but it seems like you are implying that I'm not really intent on following them. Nothing could be further from the truth, which is why I replied in the first place.

    I also did not say anything about not correcting an incorrect call by the scorer (regarding your original post). What I said is that I don't believe it's right to correct the score after the round is over, it's too hard to verify. That's why the rule is written the way it is - correct any errors after each post. I've seen those disucssions at the end of the round - "I thought I was straight on post 1, didn't anyone see a chip off the 3rd target?". Changing the score on any post but post 5 once the round is over is against the rules.

    Scott
     
  9. Trap2

    Trap2 Well-Known Member

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    Scott... I apologize for my comments, as I obviously misinterpeted what you were trying to imply. Your last post made it perfectly clear, and I agree 100%.

    Mike...... You are right. The PITA does make it a little easier, and more shooter friendly, in situations like this. I sometimes forget the difference because I just "assume" the ATA would use, and apply, the same logic. You and I both know what happens when we ass-u-me anything. lol........Dan
     
  10. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Well according to the rulebook it doesn't seem to matter where you are on the field as long as you don't fire a shot from your next post or in the case of your last post leave the field.

    "11. It is an error if the referee/scorer fails to properly mark the results
    of any shot in the section of the score sheet where the results should
    be recorded. In such cases it is the duty of that contestant to have any
    error corrected before he/she has fired the first shot at the next post or
    in the case of his/her last post before leaving the trap. If the shooter
    fails to have the score corrected, the recorded score(s) shall remain
    unchanged and no valid protest will be entertained."

    Bob Lawless
     
  11. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    This was not an ATA shoot. No ATA rules apply, only club rules are in force at such a shoot. I have no idea what the club rules are or if their are any club rules.

    I do know that Carney has the reputation of hosting very good shoots.

    Pat Ireland
     
  12. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    miketmx

    "Dan, remember that PITA rules are a little more specific and as usual make more sense than the ATA rules on this topic."

    Mike could you be a little more specific about your statement? I would also like to know how it makes more sense than the pertaining ATA rule?

    Bob Lawless
     
  13. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Mike you made a statement the they are more specific and make more sense than the ATA rule on the same topic.

    I wasn't questioning the content of the rule just your comments on the rule. As I do not agree with opinion. I think the 5 or 10 shot margin give the cheat more time to fabricate a story. BTW it also give the other squad members more time to forget.

    Bob Lawless
     
  14. Old Cowboy

    Old Cowboy Active Member

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    Scott,
    perhaps that ".....won't leave my square yard of concrete....." statement was a bit of an oversimplification. Of course if I feel there's a discrepancy with the scores as called at the post change I'll walk back to the scorers chair to straighten things out. I WON'T however walk on-to the next "square yard of concrete" until I'm satisfied with the score because once I and the rest of the squad are standing on our next posts, the squad leader might well assume we're all satisfied with our scores as called and resume shooting.......if that happens, then the scores from the last post can't be changed.

    John C. Saubak
     
  15. Border Bandit

    Border Bandit Well-Known Member

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    Just a clarification: The lost target was scored on the shooter's last station, 3rd bird, to be exact. The scorer was sitting behind the 27yd line and on a chair, not a regular scoring platform, putting the scorer at ground level, hunched over the score sheet; meaning that he could not clearly see the field, nor could the shooters hear him.

    I spoke with a gentlemen last evening who said he no longer attends shoots at Carney.
     
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