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Question about origin.

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Tron, Apr 26, 2013.

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  1. Tron

    Tron Supporting Vendor Banned Supporting Vendor

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    They say the term "Trap shooting" began in England around 1743, when hunters who wanted to sharpen their skills, began releasing live birds from a trap.
    The term “skeet” refers to an old Scandinavian word meaning “to shoot." It stands for a competitive, target shooting sport that was invented in American in 1920 to improve shooters aim before hunting season.

    OK, so where does the term "Sandbagger" come from. I've always heard it was in reference to D class people from Kentucky who go to out of State events to win a lot of money. But how does sand and bags come into play here??

    Any ideas??
     
  2. shooterIII

    shooterIII Member

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    Having a slow day Tron???
     
  3. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    It's a old anagram of "badger snag," the way that animal would, hiding in a burrow, reach a clawed paw up and out and snag unsuspecting chickens.

    It comes to us from Rural Old English (ROE) - they loved their anagrams as much as the Elizabethans liked their puns - with its meaning still very clear and appropriate.

    Neil
     
  4. Catpower

    Catpower Molon Labe TS Supporters

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    Good one Neil
     
  5. Tron

    Tron Supporting Vendor Banned Supporting Vendor

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    I don't know what it is lately about this forum. Maybe atmospheric pressure or perhaps the water temperature is still too low, but the fishing here sucks.
     
  6. Catpower

    Catpower Molon Labe TS Supporters

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    Wrong moon phase, give it a few days they will start biting again, might try changing the lure

    Live bait works good in the spring
     
  7. dhip

    dhip Active Member

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    I believe the New definition of Sandbagger,is anyone who lives along the Mississippi River now .And other Midwest Rivers, Naturally all related to Global Warming,Tilting of the Earth,and Evolving of the Earth's new rotation,Plus reactions to Polution levels continueing to rise at alarming rate.

    Doug H. (pa)
     
  8. Setterman

    Setterman Well-Known Member

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    12:07 PM.

    Tron, you should never start a thread when you're tanked.
     
  9. birdogs

    birdogs TS Member

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    Sorry to disagree, Neil. The term "sandbagger" has it's origune in the theater. Sandbags were and still are used as counterweights for scenery. When a particularly unlikeable actor would wander under one, it could be released and fall on him.

    Also remember in a Hemmingway novel when a heavy bag of sand was dropped from a height on a fighting bull the night before the bullfight. It was aimed at his hindquartere and intended to slow him down so he would not be as dangerous.

    Actually, while the above references are true, I really don't know if they apply to the term as used ib trapshooting. But they could!!!!
     
  10. Martinpicker

    Martinpicker Active Member

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    In a college class on the origin of common English phrases and words, (mostly curse words,) we were told that, although nobody knows for sure, the origin of "sandbagging" very likely goes back to the early days of horse racing whereupon a rider would weigh his mount down with sandbags during practice runs to give a misimpression of mediocre speed, and then remove the sandbags when money was put on the line. Martinpicker
     
  11. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Ah yes, Martinpicker, and no doubt your professor pointed out the depressing speed with which societal changes are robbing us of the colorful past of our language, "breaking the tie twixt tongue and turf" as my dons at King's used to inveigh.

    What sweaty self-flagilant at the health club, isolated from human contact by "personal space" and earbuds, would have any idea what the vivid rustic references from ROE even mean anymore? Use any of the common ones from two centuries ago: "stoat on a post", "armour the hedgehog", "ride your ox t' Dundee" and all you will get is a blank, uncomprehending stare.

    What do we have to replace them? "Where's the beef?" A poor trade indeed in my view!

    Neil
     
  12. The Literalist

    The Literalist Well-Known Member

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    Well, these are all quite clever, tongue-in-cheek answers...but I happen to be a bit of a linguist who actually knows from whence the term comes. It glides, nearly seamlessly from middle French, "Sans Baggeure"(literally, "without excess baggage (burden)")...but idiomatically meaning "a horse trained to limp just prior to a race."

    Louis the Sun King was said to have a stable full of Sans Baggeures (or, as he would say, "Les Cheveaux qui etes sans baggeures."

    Raced with a bogus owner's name, Louis made beaucoup francs at the tracks all through Europe. One can just hear the high roller betting crowd, upon seeing a limping bay mare, exclaim, "Alors! Zee horz she ees creep-peld. Zat nag can nevair win zee race."

    At the post, the faux-lameness would disappear and Louis' limping horse charged to the win.

    "Zee damned sans baggeures!!" screamed the crowd.
     
  13. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Now this is how threads should turn - towards the educational side. I've done a little modern research through the net and found a few interesting tidbits.

    "stoat on a post" - here's a picture of a stoat. I believe a stoat on a post would be cornered and doomed in certain situations with you being the winner.


    [​IMG]


    armour the hedgehog - I would think a hedgehog doesn't need armor. It already has some. So to armour the hedgehog means to do something that is unnecessary.


    [​IMG]


    ride your ox t' Dundee - I'm guessing Dundee was rather far from most places and since ox move slowly because they are draft animals, to ride your ox to Dundee means to choose the slow route - not very smart to be sure.


    [​IMG]


    Bonus picture just because I like it and it's on topic:


    [​IMG]


    Here's another:


    [​IMG]
     
  14. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Wow, Joe, I must say that I am impressed! I knew that your extensive background in raccoon farming would give you a leg up, but your responses speak of a broader insight into the 19th century agrarian mind than we could have hoped for. One direct hit, a very, very near miss, and one which can't be judged; no one from our century (other than a specialist) could have scored better.

    1, "armour the hedgehog - I would think a hedgehog doesn't need armor. It already has some. So the meaning is to do something that is unnecessary."

    That is exactly it! It also often carries the added meaning that nature has made some perfect things and trying to improve them is not just pointless, but detrimental. Present-day examples include Velvetta, lite beer, and Kolossal tomatoes which have now been eclipsed by something even more retrograde, "heirloom tomatoes," which proudly wear their defects, many of which appear to be tumors, right with their nose-thumbing woodiness and fantastical prices.

    2, "ride your ox t' Dundee - I'm guessing Dundee was rather far from most places and since ox move slowly, to ride your ox to Dundee means to choose the slow route."

    To this I say "Yes, but." MacKubbin's livestock market in Dundee, the largest cattle emporium south of the Highlands and north of The Border was, as you noted, a long way from almost everywhere. The specific meaning was, however, slightly different from your citation, which I offer more in the way of an extension rather than correction. The contemporaneous understanding of the phrase was in reference to planning, or rather, lack of it. The stock-boy who rode his ox to market would have to walk home. A canny lad, in contrast, would ride his pony to Dundee and lead the ox, ensuring that the return be as comfortable as the trip there.

    3."stoat on a post" - here's a picture of a stoat. I believe a stoat on a post would be cornered and in trouble in certain situations.

    That may well be the answer. The phrase was first uttered by a Yorkshireman in a pub who soon thereafter dozed off. When he awoke and was questioned he said he no longer recalled of what he had said it in lieu.

    It is now used chiefly by academics when they need a bit of tetrameter which can be read either as

    //// or /uu/.

    Neil
     
  15. Bob Schultz

    Bob Schultz Well-Known Member Supporting Vendor

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    You folks up north need to get out more....

    Bob
     
  16. Tron

    Tron Supporting Vendor Banned Supporting Vendor

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    Whoa.....this thread kinda has that "creaper" effect, sort of like that weird crap I bought in the 70's from the guy who used to cruise the neighborhood in his Duster. I think I'll just sit back and veg for a while.
     
  17. The Literalist

    The Literalist Well-Known Member

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    Neil, as you surely know, that old limey certainly didn't coin the phrase noted in #3. It's _very_ old...many examples are found in Latin utterances recorded in writings of the time, to wit: "In hoc postus, stoatum."
     
  18. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Tron - I wanted to counter Neil's comment on societal change "breaking the tie twixt tongue and turf" by demonstrating one improvement, Google Search, that can help us understand those very same connections from long ago. I may have succeeded by getting at least a passing grade from Neil himself.
     
  19. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    And now for the piece de resistance, the sandbaggers delight, created by the ATA, The Big Fifty. Where the sandbagger can adjust his averege for a dollar. HMB
     
  20. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    "and b. each contestant must pay an ATA daily registration fee of $3.00
    for each day of competition at each shooting location ($1.50 fee for
    Big 50 events), and such Zone or State Association fees as may be
    charged. . ."

    Posted in the interests of accuracy.

    It should be pointed out that in Big 50 events, only 50 targets (per discipline) may be registered and so they carry the same cost-per-target as conventional events and have higher costs than marathons, 400 target days, and similar opportunities.

    Neil
     
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