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Question about changing ATA rules

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Crickets, Oct 21, 2011.

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  1. Crickets

    Crickets Member

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    I guess I am too inexperienced to have a "legitimate" comment regarding ATA rules, whether they are too easy or favor one group over the other, but I have a question. What difference does it make? If you increase the angle of targets wont the best shooters still have the best scores? Is the problem the fact that a 21 yd shooter who gets a 99 can get beat out by a 27yd shooter shooting 100? I don't get it? If the targets are too easy then shouldn't the 27yd line be over crowded, and the lower yardages just a stopping point on your way back? On one hand people complain that ATA is not getting new shooters because it has become a sport of perfection and people cant compete, but then the next line talks a bout making the sport "more challenging". Again with only 3 seasons under my belt I might not have earned enough status to comment on it, but the logic doesn't make sense to me. Or are people really wanting it to be harder just for the higher yardage people? From my limited experience what I can tell is the shooters at the back fence have dedicated a huge amount of blood and treasure to get there. So, why are people unhappy with their success? And how would making the the sport harder increase the interest in new shooters? My experience is that people that feel welcome and have a good time come back to shoot again, whether they think they can compete with the "big dogs" or not. I can only compare it to my sporting experience, Motorcycle racing. At any event there were shop sponsored riders (not pro) that ate, slept and lived racing. They tended to walk away with the majority of money. Once in a while a back truck racer would have a real good day and have their bike dialed in and would win, but really everyone was there to have competitive fun. By the way any of you trap shooters think Trapshooting is expensive - try racing.
    Just my humble and inexperienced opinion
    Chris R
     
  2. minnship8

    minnship8 Well-Known Member

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    The whole argument about whether higher initial scores are more attractive to new shooters, doesn't really hold water. It doesn't take a new shooter long to realize that to win a shoot, his scores need to be near perfect. If the ego of the new shooter were really that fragile, that would scare him away just as quickly as a more challenging target would.

    To me, changing the game to make it more challenging or not, is an argument with a great many factors involved, but the attraction of the sport to new shooters isn't really one of them.
     
  3. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    If every top shooter expends so much blood and treasure to get to the fence and staying there then why are so many young kids standing in the same place!!
     
  4. Crickets

    Crickets Member

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    Becuase they have natural tallent and good hand eye coordination? Is that the issue? New shooters or young kids are making back too quickly? Is this really a problem? Won't they still be winnning events and moving back? What is the point in increasing dificulty?
     
  5. Kevin Fleming

    Kevin Fleming Active Member

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    Because their parents are expending that time and money!! Everywhere that jr goes, along goes a parent or two. Bigger travel expenses, plus it seems that most juniors heve top-flight equipment, don't reload, etc. And then there is the coaching/instruction. I would expect that jrs spend much more, on average, for teachers than us adults. Kids are not out there on the line thinking about the office, the mortgage, health issues. I'm kinda surprised the young people are not taking every event!!! Don't get me wrong, I am really in awe of the trap Mom and Dad, and how good these young people can shoot.
     
  6. minnship8

    minnship8 Well-Known Member

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    As I understand it, "the point in increasing difficulty", is...

    1. to undo what the proponents see as a logjam of high scores, spreading the scores more evenly and thereby reducing the number of ties

    2. Create a more even dispersion of shooters across the handicap spectrum without having to add yardage beyond the 27

    Let's not think that "attracting new shooters" means young people only. Remember that the best marketing in the world deals in attraction, not promotion. Shooting is much more likely to attract adults, who in turn, would expose their children.

    So far, I like the arguments in favor of harder targets...and I'm a new shooter.

    However, I was shooting at my local club on Wed. Conditions were pre storm, with wind and dancing targets. One of the regulars, an older gent, only shot two rounds. He told me the targets were "disappearing" to him. He would see them come out of the house and then couldn't relocate them in the current conditions. I've seen this guy be very good too. I worry that if we made targets more challenging, would people who have done this their whole life, decide they didn't care for it any longer...that would be as big a shame as anything.

    Tough choices.

    Chip
     
  7. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    If anyone actually believes widening the targets a little is gonna make some huge difference in scoring I've got a bridge in Brooklyn I'll sell 'em-cheap.

    Now combining that with a significant yardage extension and we're on to something. More concrete is the key!!
     
  8. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    I started shooting in a league in Minnesota in 1961 and shot my first registered ATA targets in 1964. I don't believe that the Hole 3 versus Hole 2 argument has any more relevance to attracting and keeping new ATA shooters today as it did 50 years ago. I think economic considerations are far more relevant. In those early days we had a lot of casual League shooters who were content to shoot 50 targets a week and never dream of shooting a registered target because of the expense and committment involved. The same philosophy applies today where I live. We can get 12 squads of casual shooters to show up for a once per year Fun Shoot of 50 Singles - 50 Handicap - and 25 Pair of Doubles where we are lucky to get 4 squads of shooters for an ATA shoot.
     
  9. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Crickets I don't know that this is actually the reason. I have some figures that will provoke a lot of thought for you and draw a lot of criticism from others.

    At the Grand this past year all handicap events pay outs in yardage for the entire Grand. Amounted to 724.5 yards total of those 724.5 361 yards were paid to the 27 yd shooters at the Grand. That figure includes earned yardage for scores and automatic punches for qualifying scores. Thats all for one yardage.

    The rest of the yardage 363.5 yards were paid to the other 9 yardages at the Grand. That is 9 different yardages.

    Kind of lopsided wouldn't you say? Would you see any advantage to the shooters from the 9 other yardages to use the grocery money to play. Those that go are there for their enjoyment. Those that like to play the money but can't muster the scores needed to justify playing. So do they still go? I say it depends on how much you like to play. Either way it will keep the game down some.

    Usually those that really like to play the money want something done to change things. Then there are those that want the game more challenging and they believe that by doing so the 27 yard dominance will be diminished.

    If a shooter is at 22yds there isn't much incentive to shoot really great score. Especially when you are afraid to play the money because the percentages aren't in your favor. I am not saying they are laying down but there is still less drive in your attitude to excel.

    Bob Lawless
     
  10. spitter

    spitter Well-Known Member TS Supporters

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    Recruitment and retention is a numbers game... Clubs that ask enough folks to shoot and/or join and make an effort improve communication, developing better personal relationships with their members are GUARANTEED to grow...

    Also, let's not throw the baby out with the bath water when it comes to change... however, by sticking collective heads in the sand can attempt to solve nothing... problems represent opportunities.

    Vision dims, arthritis, circulation - many infirmaties will form in all of us. People have to accept that we all eventually succumb to physical limitations at some point in our lives.

    best regards,

    Jay
     
  11. 391 shooter

    391 shooter Well-Known Member

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    When I was introduced to trap,(at Kingsburg Gun Club), I was sold on it right away, but, I was 52 years old and had the time and money to enjoy it at that point in my life.

    Getting young people into this is the hardest part.
    1. The young shooters that I have seen are supported by Mom and Pop.
    2. Once they leave home other things in life take priority
    3. We hope once they get going in the world they come back.
    4. That is why I feel you see folks mostly 50 and above at regular events.

    The rules are the rules, so far they have been fair to me.
    One of my favorite wins was in a shoot off in HDCP and a chance at a very nice Gold Coin Buckel. I was on the 22 yd with my worthless 391 and was against a 27 yd guy with a Perrozi. I shot first with a 24 he then shot to the second post and had missed his second target and quit, congratulated me with a hand shake and walked off.

    This type thing keeps me comming back, will I ever see the 27, who knows, but I will continue to try, have fun and compete when I want to.
     
  12. luvtrapguns

    luvtrapguns Well-Known Member

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    Crickets

    New shooter or not. You make more sense with your analysis than most of the old timers. My bet would be that most of those wanting a wider target set are having a hard enough time hitting two hole targets. Why do they want change? I have not heard a reason or argument that makes any sense to me. But then I have only been shooting competitve ATA trap since 1972. And on most occasions I still have to work REALLY HARD to turn in a good score, two hole or not. Marc
     
  13. KENENT1

    KENENT1 Active Member

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    I would like to see harder targets for everybody but me!! (8O)


    jk


    tony
     
  14. dead on 4

    dead on 4 Well-Known Member

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    The starting point here is the ATA was created to foster competitive shooting, the key word is competitive. The ATA was never intened to serve as a venue for casual shooters, those types of shoots are reserved for gun club members who wanted nothing more.

    The great thing about the ATA is you can begin at one level and move to next if you have desire and dedication to do so. To advance in anything you must have desire and be willing to have the dedication to fullfill your desire. In life you get out what you put in, if you want more out of shooting you have to put more, there's no easy way around this, it's fact.

    People reach the top by continually putting in, never letting off the throttle, never.

    If you think shooting tons of targets is the only way to the top you better think again. Ask yourself what am I doing daily to improve my shooting, yes I said daily 24/7 - 365. Are you coming home after a long day of work or maybe before work and lifting a weighted gun a 100 times or more, are you doing daily eye exercises in low and bright light, are you walking daily to keep your legs in shape, are you eating right, do you have trap stations chalked out on your floor so you study your foot postions until they become automatic, if not, you're not dedicated enough to advance your skills and move to the next level, you haven't put enough in.

    If you think the top shooters strolled to 27, you don't have clue what it takes to get there and win at the highest levels.

    You guy's don't want to work, just complain. If you could get to the 27 by complaining, all of you would have been there years ago..............

    Surfer
     
  15. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Surfer just curious of course, but how do you know all of this information you are passing along to the rest of us?

    Bob Lawless
     
  16. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    If you want a tougher trap game get in step with the rest of the planet and shoot bunker trap. You know the game they play in the Olympics. You know the games in London next year, the games where we couldn't even qualify for a team spot, or individual slot. HMB
     
  17. dead on 4

    dead on 4 Well-Known Member

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    Bob,
    I know what it takes to win, I've studied many winners. I started a company with nothing except desire to make it into something, I had no money, just my wits and belief in myself I could build it into a winner! My one and only focus was to make it a going concern. Everyone said I'd never pull it off, that was in '79. I sold my company in '03.

    In the process of stating my company, I learned with dedication, focus, desire and work, I mean real work, anyone can attain higher acheivements in any pursuiit, if they really apply themselves, the key is commitment........

    Surfer
     
  18. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    In all fairness to what ever you have done. I don't doubt anything you say you have done. However when you make a statement like this.

    "The starting point here is the ATA was created to foster competitive shooting, the key word is competitive. The ATA was never intened to serve as a venue for casual shooters"

    In all fairness to everyone else this is an opinion nothing more. There are many people that shoot this came that do it for their own entertainment only. Or as you call it they are casual shooters. So I will say it is what you make it like it or not.

    Bob Lawless
     
  19. spitter

    spitter Well-Known Member TS Supporters

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    In 1889 when the Interstate Trapshooting Association was first inaugurated, whoever the first few folks were.. probably had no clue what the heck they were getting themselves into, but decided this "game" needed rules and some real leadership so they formed an organization to do just that and probably drew straws to pick the first president...

    The ATA didn't even become the Amateur Trapshooting Association until 1923...

    So let's just say its evolved into what it is... whether anyone in 1889 would recognize it, is pure conjecture...

    best regards,

    Jay
     
  20. dead on 4

    dead on 4 Well-Known Member

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    Bob, User1
    90% of what's written on this sight is opinion based with facts mixed here and there. We all have opinions, me included. I'm entitled mine as you and everyone else is entitled to theirs.

    It's a shame we don't live closer, we could sit have some very long spirited conversations how we each view the world................

    Surfer
     
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