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Quacks calling guns a "disease" again...

Discussion in 'Politics, Elections & Legislation' started by Brian in Oregon, Aug 12, 2012.

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  1. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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  2. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Quacks calling guns a

    This is the same crap Dr. Art Kaplan spewed in 1999:

    THE MASSACRE at Columbine High School is merely the most visible and
    horrible manifestation of the price Americans pay for not recognizing the
    enormous threat that guns pose to our health and safety. On the very same
    day that dozens of students were shot in Littleton, a group of kids found a
    stray gun lying under a parked car on a downtown Philadelphia street.

    While fooling with the weapon, it discharged and a five-year-old boy was
    shot in the head. He died soon thereafter. Tragedies like this happen every
    day somewhere in the United States.

    The harsh fact is that we are a society that cannot handle guns. They are
    too powerful and can do too much damage. There are too many amongst us who
    are too frail and disturbed.

    The rights of those who can and do keep guns and use them responsibly must
    be curbed because there is a minority amongst us who do neither.

    If guns were microbes, we would launch a national war to eradicate them. The
    toll they take through accidents, murder and suicide is incredible. The rest
    of the civilized world can only wonder in horror why we insist that our cars
    be lined with air bags and our restaurant air be smoke-free, while allowing
    any kids with a credit card and access to the Internet to buy automatic
    rifles and shotguns.

    It is time for medicine and public health to take the lead. Guns are a
    threat to the health of the American people. We need to treat them just as
    we would a lethal virus or a polluting toxin.

    The President and Congress should convene a national commission to attack
    the problem of gun violence and recommend with one year a public health
    strategy that can stop the carnage and end the fear that grips this nation.

    It is not guns that kill, but those that operate them. True enough. But too
    many of those who can get them are incapable of responsibly using them.

    In such a situation the price of freedom is too high. It is time to start a
    public health war on guns.

    Arthur Caplan, Ph.D., is director of the Center for Bioethics at the
    University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia.
     
  3. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Quacks calling guns a

    And this was Dr. Norman Balog's rebuttal to Dr. Art Kaplan. Posting all this so when this "guns are a disease" subject comes up, you can copy and paste this excellent rebuttal.

    Subject: Guns like Microbes<br>
    Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 21:21:48 -0400<br>
    From: nb<br>
    Organization: http://www.mcdl.org<br>
    <br>
    http://www.mcdl.org/News/1999/GunsLikeMicrobes.htm<br>
    <br>
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    Guns like Microbes

    From: Dr. Norman M. Balog, D.O., Director of Medical Affairs, MCDL

    To: Dr. Arthur Kaplan, Ph.D., Director, University of Pennsylvania's Center
    for Bioethics.

    Dear Dr. Kaplan,

    I was considering a sideline in biomedical ethics at one time, long ago, and
    have dabbled in it over the years. No one has ever shouted out "Is there a
    biomedical ethicist in the house?" so I guess, for me, being a family
    practitioner is enough. Ethics, like other branches of pure natural science,
    like philosophy and rhetoric, have no money or glory in it to speak of,
    really, unless you're pandering to the socialists as you have obviously
    chosen to do. Fact is, I used to look up to you, until today.

    The key fallacy in your argument is when you say:

    "If guns were microbes, we would launch a national war to eradicate them."

    Which is precisely what guns are not, infectious agents. The mere presence
    of them does NOT influence, nor guarantee, that they will be the agents of
    murder, death, mayhem, suicide and accidents that you and the group at
    Handgun Control Inc and the Violence Policy Center would have us believe.
    Fact is, some fine research has been done by John Lott, David Kopel, Gary
    Kleck, et. al. pointing out quite the opposite, that when citizens carry
    firearms, the incidence (the RATE) of personal assaults and robberies goes
    down demonstrably, due to no other factor than the presence of the guns
    themselves.

    Guns do not meet the criteria of the German microbiologist, Robert Koch,
    known as "Koch's Postulates."

    To wit:

    1. The specific organism should be shown to be present in all cases of

    animals suffering from a specific disease but should not be found in

    healthy animals.
    2. The specific microorganism should be isolated from the diseased animal

    and grown in pure culture on artificial laboratory media.
    3. This freshly isolated microorganism, when inoculated into a healthy

    laboratory animal, should cause the same disease seen in the original

    animal.
    4. The microorganism should be reisolated in pure culture from the

    experimental infection.

    -Qod erat demonstratum.

    Guns are responsible for a massacre? We are a society that cannot handle
    guns? You're saying this here? So what has happened in the past five hundred
    years of their existence to change that all of a sudden? Only in the past
    six years of the current administration have guns been used as widely and
    with such deadly political force as only bombs have been used in the past.
    And bombs HAVE been used, at Littleton and in the past by Bolsheviks, by the
    Intifada, Clinton in the Sudan and the Balkans, by the IRA, and a ragtag
    band of freedom fighters some of us call this country's founding fathers.
    But, like I said, there IS a difference between politics and ethics, one you
    might consider reviewing sometime.

    There are a lot of questions left begging in your column for which I can't
    imagine there are any reasoned, sound answers.

    "If guns were viruses," you said. I like that analogy, only because if guns
    WERE like viruses, then matches might be like napalm. Better still, if guns
    cause crime, then matches cause fires, cars cause motor vehicle accidents
    and deaths, penises cause rape, and so on. If the killers at columbine used
    just firebombs, would you call for the elimination of gasoline? I think not.
    You're barking up the wrong barrel, Art.

    Maybe it is the culture that needs to be fixed and not its tools. But that
    would take work, and it's not something that government has any
    constitutional authority to do.

    In summary, it cannot be proven that the mere presence of guns, CAUSES
    violent acts. If this were true, there would be a multitude of assaults on
    citizens by police officers, security guards, and the branches of the
    military. Some other element, some critical control has slipped off the
    average teenager who uses weapons as a means of expression when all means of
    expression are becoming politicized and controlled by the government. But
    that's just an idea, much like yours.

    I know you were playing to a dumbed down audience on the internet and
    through MSNBC, or you would have followed your own argument to its most
    logical conclusion (one that Sir William of Occam would have been proud of),
    and that is, guns are the single most effective deterrent to violent crime
    and personal injury ever invented. On the contrary to your position,
    firearms, even by the Dept of Justice's own admission, are responsible for
    at least 1.5 MILLION defensive uses per year. Some researchers put this
    number in escess of 2.5 million. But, as the man said, a million here, a
    million there, pretty soon we're talking serious lives being saved.

    Yes, people are killed with handguns (not BY guns, but WITH... to say BY is
    to ascribe intent, and volition to the weapon itself, even you wouldn't make
    that mistake unless you were prostituting yourself to the anti self-defense
    crowd), but of the 30 thousand or so killed, only a scant thousand or two
    are "children" the majority are probably killed in defensive uses, both by
    citizens and police; some are suicides, and few are accidents. A fair trade.

    I will lead you to an interesting set of statistics to ponder over, the 10
    leading causes of death from the CDC
    http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/osp/leadcaus/ustable.htm

    When you're done there, take a look at some of the work being done by the
    statisticians, engineers, physicists, and other folks at the following
    website: http://www.mcdl.org

    Then, while you're at it, take a look at http://www.jpfo.org and read about
    what happens under regimes which disarm its subjects. Guns don't cause
    violence, but they do prevent it, as a matter of fact, it's been said that
    "Guns Save Lives." Example: the mere presence of a handful of firearms in
    untrained hands held off a division of crack infantry troops in the Warsaw
    Ghetto in April - May of 1943. The presence of firearms here in America
    merely prevent rapes, robbery, murder, and other acts of savagery. Some of
    us hope they will forestall any future holocausts.

    I'm really sorry to have read what you wrote for MSNBC, Dr. Kaplan, I have
    always been a great fan of your positions on issue of ethics in science and
    medicine, but what you wrote was political, not ethical, and I can no longer
    trust your positions on such matters of import.

    - Dr. Norman Balog
     
  4. ctreay

    ctreay Member

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    Quacks calling guns a

    I personaly believe that the root cause of most if not all of this violence stems from the gorey, violent, movies and video games that are so popular with the younger generation. They become so used to the killing and bombing on the screen that the transition to real life dosen't bother them at all. The availablity of drugs simply fuels the fires.

    ctreay
     
  5. bcnu

    bcnu Active Member

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    Quacks calling guns a

    I read in interesting peice earlier today regarding the gun confication in Austrailia 10 years ago and how much the crime rates have increased since. It is appaling how our anti gun bunch here in the United States can still say with a straight face that less guns=less crime. It is now PROVEN in Austrailia that just the opposite is true. So far, they can't even define home invasion legally. Amazing. John
     
  6. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Quacks calling guns a

    Well look no further than the crime in big liberal cities and in many blue states, most of which have strict gun "control". Then compare that to the crime in red states.

    The problem is "law-abiding citizen control" aka "gun control" does not work. What they need is criminal control. Starting with harsh penalties, like 30 years without parole, for committing a felony with a gun, and 20 years without parole for stealing a gun. If that fails to act as a deterrent then the criminal violating these laws needs to be locked away for a long time to protect society.
     
  7. TinMan88

    TinMan88 TS Member

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    Quacks calling guns a

    ctreay, I would add the traffic stop has turned into a carchase with no account for the innocent drivers who happen to get in the way. (grand theft auto game)

    bcnu, Hidden in plain sight, the truth of the Australia 'experiment' has no bearing on the PLAN to alter the gun ownership equation.

    Your eyes see the truth, your ears are jamming the reception.
     
  8. oz

    oz Active Member

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    Quacks calling guns a

    kids with a credit card can buy automatic weapons and shotguns by mail. bullshit. I can't do that. purchases made online or through the mail have to go to an FFA licensed holder. HE/SHE will do the background check and find that the (kid) cannot legaly buy a firearm of ANY kind. He will then call the police dept to investigate.
     
  9. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Quacks calling guns a

    re: "kids with a credit card can buy automatic weapons and shotguns by mail."....

    Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth.

    Especially when a biased or lazy media does not call them on it.
     
  10. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    Quacks calling guns a

    Automatic weapons reuire a Class 3 license with a full background check and an
    expenxive license. What kids do that?

    The truth is that doctors kill a lot more people than guns in the US.

    Anybody besides Obama trying to ban them?

    HM
     
  11. shannon391

    shannon391 Active Member

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    Quacks calling guns a

    Ban them like drugs?

    How's that ban working out.
     
  12. Stl Flyn

    Stl Flyn Well-Known Member

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    Quacks calling guns a

    I can see why ducks would think guns where a disease, and getting rid of them would be a cure!
     
  13. John Galt

    John Galt TS Member

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    Quacks calling guns a

    Speaking of quacks,,,,,,,,,,,,
     
  14. Stl Flyn

    Stl Flyn Well-Known Member

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    Quacks calling guns a


    [​IMG]
     
  15. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Quacks calling guns a

    I wonder if these supposedly "real" doctors really understand how cures for diseases work?

    You would inoculate by issuing guns to law-abiding citizens to fight the disease of criminals with guns.
     
  16. Porcupine

    Porcupine Active Member

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    Quacks calling guns a

    The problem I have with the quack is him saying the "price of freedom is too high". The freedoms we cherish must be preserved at ANY cost. Do they believe that freedom is easy? Not every country/society can handle their own freedom. We will have ours only as long as we have the guts to defend them.

    LA in MA
     
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