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pw primer seat problems- possible solution

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by skeet_man, Apr 27, 2010.

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  1. skeet_man

    skeet_man Well-Known Member

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    I've been having some trouble with getting ALL of the primers to seat flush on my 800+ I'll get 23 out of a box that are fine, but 2 where the primer sits a little proud. Since I'm loading on a hydro, the press is obviously finding "home" every time. What I'm thinking is that sometimes the brass of the hull isn't as tight a fit in the die, and when the crosshead comes down, the act of pushing the primer into the hull is expending some of its energy into pushing the hull up a little farther into the die. I know the pw manual says to seat the hulls slightly deeper than flush. Is there any danger in seating the hull as deep as it'll go inside the die? If my thinking is correct, if I seat the hull up into the die as far as it'll go, the primer will have no choice but to seat flush, since there will be no more wiggle room for the re-prime action to push the hull up a little farther.
     
  2. WNCRob

    WNCRob Member

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    Skeet Man,

    I am quite frustrated with this apsect of the PW's performance, as well. From my standpoint, if the machine is adjusted properly, all pimers should seat properly. So if the majority are seating properly, the machine must be set up properly? If you try to push the primers more deeply into the pocket, you will depress the hull base so that it is concave. This problem is apparently because PW does not support the back of the base to gain a more positive and consistent primer insertion. I don't know if it can be cured. Personally, I have significant issues when reloading Gun Clubs and using non-Remington primers...Winchester 209's and Cheddites, mostly. Probably 15-20% are high. No problems at all when reloading AA's with Winchester primers, or when reloading STS's. Its the steel-based hulls that give me problems.

    WNCRob
     
  3. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    Real simple guys and not easy to correct. Most times it's because the head flexes when encountering the added resistance of sizing the steel headed cases. The result is some case head protrusion on the initial stage that really screws up the entire operation. Better results can be obtained by first running those cases through a MEC Super Sizer.

    Similar problems occur when trying to seat off brand primers in Remington cases. Remington primers only in those cases usually works!!
     
  4. skeeljc

    skeeljc Supporting Vendor Supporting Vendor

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    I have the same problem with Remington STS .410's and Cheddite primers. I do not have the problem with Winchester AA's and Win 209 primers.

    Here is another possible cause. If the rim thickness varies then the bottom of the hull will end up in a different place and some primers will not seat flush.

    I have adjusted the hull insertion station to fully seat the hull in the shell holder.

    Jim Skeel
     
  5. cubancigar2000

    cubancigar2000 Well-Known Member

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    It is not the loader but rather the hulls. They wont do it on the second reload. It is the plastic base inside the hull
     
  6. Unknown1

    Unknown1 Well-Known Member

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    You need to be careful with how much you reduce the size of the hull base with the SuperSizer. I've re-sized a batch of new production Gun Club hulls (real shiny bases, almost chrome) to .806" so they fit easily into the dies of my 900. I'm thinking that the lack of resistance between the hull and the die actually allows the final crimping punch to push the hull down through the die during final crimp. This causes a faint impression of the edges of the crosshead channel (runs around the crosshead under the primers of the hulls) to appear in the bottom of the hull base on either side of the primer.

    I didn't believe it until I checked the condition of a series of hull bases at each station and found that the impression was showing up only at the final crimp station. A piece of paper placed under the hull at final crimp verified this. The only thing I can figure is that the metal is that soft that this can occur. I do not get the same impression in the brass bases of either STS or AA hulls with no press changes, not do I get it in older Gun Club hulls.

    The final crimp tool is correctly adjusted (.050" crimp depth) and in good condition (all new parts) and the nut that adjusts taper is all the way up. Now I leave the hulls tight or, at best, resize them only down to .810".

    MK
     
  7. scooterbum

    scooterbum Active Member

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    "It is the plastic base inside the hull."


    Correct. Along with primer dimensions.
     
  8. Squeal

    Squeal Member

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    Will the MEC Super sizer de-prime also?
     
  9. Unknown1

    Unknown1 Well-Known Member

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    No, it's just a lever operated sizing collet.

    MK
     
  10. Gross Man

    Gross Man Member

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    There is a MEC Case Conditioner that resizes and deprimes. It is out of production, but you can get them on ebay. I have a 12 ga I can sell if you are interested. Billy
     
  11. JerryP

    JerryP Active Member

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    No adjustment will cure the problem. The plastic "flange" in the end of the Rem primer pocket will simply not always yield and allow the primer to seat. STS or Gun Club, doesn't matter.
     
  12. Unknown1

    Unknown1 Well-Known Member

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    That little "flange" or shoulder can be removed partially or completely by reaming the primer hole with a drill bit in size <UL><LI>#1-.228" (partial removal),<LI>5.8 mm-.2283",<LI>5.9 mm-.2323", <LI>letter A-.2340" or <LI>15/64"-.2344" (complete removal)</UL> without damaging the metal in the pocket. I use the "A" letter drill to leave some of the shoulder intact to grip the reduced diameter of the end of the Winchester primer.

    MK
     
  13. Jim Cunningham

    Jim Cunningham TS Member

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    Some of you are right, it is the hull, the rem. primer pocket is tapered; smaller inside than out, The Rem. primer is also tapered to fit. AA's and most of the rest are "Square" You are forcing the primer into a hole that is to small for it. It is only a problem on once fired hulls since the primer will usually go in enough to make the shell usable and the first time it is fired the primer pocket will "Fire form" to the primer and gives no more trouble.
    Jim Cunningham
     
  14. threedeuces

    threedeuces TS Member

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    I cant figure out the problem here. I never (knock on wood)have any of these issues with my 800+. I have the auto drive and the case feeder and when I flip the two power switches I shit and get and never have a problem. I cant figure out why some do and some don't.
     
  15. whiz white

    whiz white Strong Supporter of Trapshooting Banned

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    Steel based shells will probably always generate problems.

    I load Federal papers, Federal GMP, ST, Nitro, old style AA, new style AA, ann with ZERO problems, and I'll mix and match primers from Remington, old AA chrome, new AA, Federal, and CCI, and NEVER experience one problem.

    Switch to a steel based hull, or Nobel Sport primer, and it's altogether a different story.

    Shoot too many steel based shells and watch what happens to your chamber...

    WW
     
  16. JerryP

    JerryP Active Member

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    The primer seating problem only occurs with Rem hulls, because of the shape of the primer pocket. Steel or brass doesn't make a difference in my experience. The primer pocket is plastic and the same shape in both. A non-Rem primer will hit the plastic at the end of the primer pocket that Unknown1 is removing with the drill bit. Most will seat ok but maybe 10% won't. That 10% gets fire formed as Jin Cunningham described. Remington has designed that bastard shaped primer pocket that way deliberately.
     
  17. Unknown1

    Unknown1 Well-Known Member

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    <blockquote>"<I>Remington has designed that bastard shaped primer pocket that way deliberately."</I></blockquote>

    I really don't think that's the case at all.

    I am sure that the shape of the nose of their primer is responsible for the shape of the end of the primer tube but I've found that the newest production run of hulls seems to lack that troublesome shoulder in many cases. I have also noticed that the amount of plastic I remove varies from one generation of hulls to another.

    When I acquire some Gun Club hulls I deprime them and ream the tunnels when I get them home. I've found that the new hulls with very shiny bases don't need reaming as there is no shoulder in the hulls.

    I'm thinking that the tunnel is straight in the unfired hulls and that the plastic at the end of the tube softens and moves under the pressure/heat of a first firing and conforms to the shape of the end of the primer. The new hulls seem to have less plastic in this area (shorter primer tunnels) so there is none to fold over the end of the primer. Winchester hulls probably act the same way but the shape of the nose of a Winchester primer keeps that from being a problem.

    MK
     
  18. skeeljc

    skeeljc Supporting Vendor Supporting Vendor

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    If you want to de-prime and size your hulls get a MEC Sizemaster and just run them through the first station. I do this with all my hulls and I find that it makes for smoother operation of the loader whether it is a P/W or a Hornady 366. This additional operation affords the opportunity to examine the hull for damage and cull it out before it gets loaded.

    Jim Skeel
     
  19. Unknown1

    Unknown1 Well-Known Member

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    <I>"If my thinking is correct, if I seat the hull up into the die as far as it'll go, the primer will have no choice but to seat flush, since there will be no more wiggle room for the re-prime action to push the hull up a little farther."</I>

    skeet_man,

    I reread your original post and there is an error in your plan.

    As the P-W cycles, the index pad (post, stop) is supposed to stop the travel of the mechanism so things don't get bent or broken. If the hull is pushed all the way into the die, the primer will still be inserted into the primer tunnel only as far as it is willing to go and then the primer post in the priming assembly will take3 over as the machine stop when the mechanism has traveled as far as it is able.

    There will be no point in trying to jam the primer in any further as the base of the hull will distort to absorb the force.

    MK
     
  20. JerryP

    JerryP Active Member

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    Unknown1, call me cynical but it looks obvious the primer pocket is molded to the shape of the Rem primer. Plastic is not melting and moving. Don't you wonder why Rem makes their primers and primer pockets shaped differently than everyone else? It leads me to kinda think they want me to use Rem primers. And they want me to use "new" Nitro's with "softer recoil".

    You are right about not trying to "jam the primer in any further as the base of the hull will distort to absorb the force." I have pushed so hard the whole metal base will be concave and the primer will still not be seated properly. I adjust my press to load AAs and everything else loads fine. Well,,,, except the bastard Remingtons.
     
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