1. Attention: We have put together a thread with tips and a tutorial video to help with using the new software. Please take a moment to check out the thread here: Trapshooters.com Tutorial & Help Video.
    Dismiss Notice

Purpose of the 2008 extended target year?

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by Wayne of PA, Oct 12, 2008.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Wayne of PA

    Wayne of PA Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    467
    What exactly was the purpose of the extension of the 2008 target year? I’m not shooting as much as I used to and its really going to make it hard to qualify for the major shoots in 2009. Thanks,

    Dale,






    2009 Target Year

    The 2008 Target year will end on October 31, 2008.

    The 2009 Target year will begin on November 1, 2008 and end on August 31, 2009.

    Each target year thereafter will be from September 1 to August 31.

    [​IMG]

    <img
     
  2. grnberetcj

    grnberetcj Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    5,680
    Where have you been?

    Curt
     
  3. TjayE

    TjayE Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    704
    Each year the new ATA president seems obligated to make a change in the ATA rules and this change was Neil's brainchild. I just can not understand why all the Delegates voted in favor of this change. All is well now, the Delegates voted to change the target year back to Sept 1 thru August 31. I approve this change. Tom
     
  4. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,840
    TjayE, I think when you read the minutes of the BOD meeting (available soon) you will change your mind about my input on this.

    Neil
     
  5. deking00

    deking00 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    97
    The target year was changed to November 1 - October 31 at the 2007 Grand. A lot of shooters did not like the change and it was changed back at the 2008 Grand. However they did not want to make effective immediately because it would not give the shooters time to get target requirements in for things like State Teams when the shooters thought they had until the end of October to get them in.
     
  6. TjayE

    TjayE Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    704
    Neil, I will read the BOD meeting minutes, when published. I am hoping that the targets shot from Sept 1st through Oct 31, 2008 will count towards the 2009 target year. I am also glad the target year was changed back to the previous dates of September 1 to August 31. This is a good move. Should have NEVER been extended to November 1st. Tom
     
  7. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,840
    Tom, in some cases targets shot between The Grand and 1 November will be counted as 2009 targets. For example, in assessing (or not) penalty for the 2009 Grand, that will be done. Some states may do that, some do something else, others nothing at all.

    It became clear to 32 voting members of the BOD that the change to November should not have been made, just as you say.

    Neil
     
  8. grnberetcj

    grnberetcj Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    5,680
    Tom,

    As the President of the Delaware Trapshooting Assoc., I can advise that for our State Shoot, the targets shot between Sept 1st and Oct.31st, 2008, will be counted into the current (2009) target year. We also are going to reduce the target requirements for the current and past target years.

    Curt - Delaware
     
  9. phirel

    phirel TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,556
    Curt- When a shooter presents a 2009 card that has the totals for 2008, how will you be able to tell which 2008 targets were shot between Sept.1 and Oct. 31, 2008?

    Dale- My answer to your original question is that it seems to be the best way to correct a mistake (my opinion) that was made a little over a year ago. Now and then the BOD does make a mistake. To their credit, they recognize the mistake quickly and change it at there next meeting. I can think of other times when this has happened.

    Pat Ireland
     
  10. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,840
    Pat, you are right It'll be a bit of a hassle. Here's what I'm thinking. The ATA could run a member-specific simple total for each of singles, handicap and doubles for every state, adding up the targets shot between 1 Sept 08 and 1 Nov 08.

    That printout, alphabetized, could be sent to the state secretary and it could be duplicated and be available to be classifiers at the state shoot. If someone says they have targets on that list, targets which would change penalty to non-penalty, the classifier could look it up. I don't think there'll be all that many anyway. For example, in Minnesota we just want 400 birds and then only for adult men and most get that many without much problem if it's an issue for them at all.

    Neil
     
  11. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,538
    Location:
    Oxford MA
    Just a question or two if I may. Wayne of PA said.

    "I’m not shooting as much as I used to and its really going to make it hard to qualify for the major shoots in 2009."

    Just what major shoots in 2009 are you referring to?

    TjayE you said.

    "Each year the new ATA president seems obligated to make a change in the ATA rules and this change was Neil's brainchild."

    Your inference is that the new ATA President makes decisions alone with out the benefit of the BOD vote. Just a bit of an unkind comment don't you think or is this just a case of someone who is easy to criticize and not so willing to support? Great attitude !!!!!!!!!!!!

    Bob Lawless
     
  12. Laudygirl

    Laudygirl TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    49
    Ah yes, the attempt to make the ATA office staff have more time after the Grand to get the end of target year info finished will now make even more work for them.
    "The ATA could run a member-specific simple total for each of singles, handicap and doubles for every state, adding up the targets shot between 1 Sept 08 and 1 Nov 08."

    If a state wants to use these targets shot for their state requirement, why not require the shooter(rules in program)to bring their 08 average card to be classified?
     
  13. K80433SC

    K80433SC Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2008
    Messages:
    411
    My thoughts EXACTLY, Laudygirl...............
    wasn't one of the original premises of the target year change to "ease" the burden on the office staff?

    Now -- there is an idea to create a list of member-specific total of targets shot list for every state, coming directly from the President of the ATA.

    I realize that I am just a simple, dues-paying member in an organization that appears to have little regard for the AVERAGE JOE, but what am I missing here????

    And -- before you jump all over me, Bob......I have watched you support EVERYTHING the ATA has done since I began visiting this site. Save it for someone else, please............
     
  14. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,538
    Location:
    Oxford MA
    K80433SC you said

    "wasn't one of the original premises of the target year change to "ease" the burden on the office staff?"

    I heard that also and may have even repeated it. Guess what I never saw it as be fact directly from the ATA have you?

    You also said

    "I realize that I am just a simple, dues-paying member in an organization that appears to have little regard for the AVERAGE JOE, but what am I missing here????"

    I know what you are missing. As a dues paying member in this association that appears to have little regard for the AVERAGE JOE. You missed your options. You don't have to be a dues paying member nobody is holding you here.

    Just out of curiosity why are you a member? Let me answer that question for you. Because you love to shoot and by being a member of the ATA you can compete any where you wish in this and other countries. By shooting in shoots designed for this purpose.

    With that being said I would like to ask a couple of questions. If this is true and as far as I know the ATA and PITA are the only associations that I
    know of. Don't you think you might better serve your own interests if you tried to help situations instead of criticizing the powers that are trying to keep this association strong? Maybe you think some other Association is going to spring up and cater to your every whim?

    Now I don't believe I have jumped all over you as you put it. I do however feel that if you come here spreading dissension and your apparent beliefs. That the ATA has some other motive for their decisions. Then I think you should get what ever people including me hand you. In watching some of your post in the past I don't understand how you can be so short sighted and unable to realize this for yourself. You don't appear to be stupid but some of your words don't seem to back that up.

    If I am wrong so be it I can live with it. However know one will ever convince me that if anyone plans on reaping the benefits of this associations they should be smart enough to realize that decisions that the BOD make are by in large for the benefit of all. Sometimes they make mistakes and as in this case they tried to rectify them and they live with all the idiotic criticism to boot JMO and I am entitled to it.

    Bob Lawless
     
  15. grnberetcj

    grnberetcj Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    5,680
    Pat,

    To answer your question, if a shooter reads the "Shoot Book" provided by the DTA, the pertinent info regarding target requirements will be listed and explained. If a shooter fails to bring proof of his/her target history, then they may be placed in a penalty classification.

    It all has to do with "Shooter Responsibility".

    Curt
     
  16. BDodd

    BDodd TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,594
    TjayE, I'll come back some on your inference regarding the ATA president also. Please stop and think about how BOD operations work; not all that different than the Fed.Gov't. The president can do little more than suggest and call for motions that he believes need to be then formed in a motion, seconded, and discussed and finally voted on by the entire Board or at least a quorum. Thus, even if Neil did want the change of which you speak, the most he could do would have been to bring it to the attention of the board, maybe have previously talked it up some with members of the board, and call for a motion from someone. It's much the same at any club, state organization, or even our voted in U.S. President when he asks the Congress to present him with a bill that does this or that. They can do it or not from that point on....breakemall....Bob Dodd
     
  17. BIGDON

    BIGDON Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    6,620
    Location:
    Michigan
    By the way Mr. "I have read all the stuff", Neil is no longer the President so get off his back. He is busy wearing his Past President hat and probably enjoying it alot as he doesn't have to put up with crude remarks.

    Don
     
  18. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,840
    Laudygirl, remember that many states will just - for one year - make their target requirement "for the last two target years combined." That's the easy way. Or do nothing at all. That's easier yet. Or maybe they will ask for the data I've outlined.

    I'm wondering, though, just how much work you are predicting with

    "Ah yes, the attempt to make the ATA office staff have more time after the Grand to get the end of target year info finished will now make even more work for them."

    I figure if I had the data, as does the ATA, and just used Excel, not the proper data-base program they have, I could do the work in a couple of minutes, email it to a requesting state, and my coffee would still be too hot to drink. They aren't producing illuminated scrolls or anything, just a sort to get the state, a couple of cuts to get the months, and a save.

    The problem is not going to be classification at the State Shoot. That's trivial, once a plan is in place. And making people bring the 2008 card - as you suggest - is _no_ solution. What are you going to do - this?

    Shooter: "I shot the targets but don't have my card to prove it."

    Classifier: "Your should have read the program; you are A with a 90 average. We could have effortlessly asked for an email to help work this out, but it's easier just to screw you. . ."

    Shooter: (Well, I can't post that here, can I?)

    The real problem will be with State Teams. As far as I can tell, no one has noticed this yet, but it's a time bomb. Mostly, once the rules are set, it'll just a simple case of some more work for the person doing it. No big thing, but something state BOD's, when they have their fall meetings, should note as an agenda item so everyone knows what to expect.

    Neil





    Shooter:
     
  19. Gary Waalkes

    Gary Waalkes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2007
    Messages:
    1,398
    Sorry Mr Winston - I think I missed something. Our Delaware shoot attracts people from all over. The obvious places are PA, NJ, MD, NY, VA, and WV. The not so obvious are the other 43 states and the Canadian Provinces. So each state needs shooter history on everyone.

    What is the ATA going to provide to the cashiers and gun clubs across the country? Will we be able to get the target breakdown of the 2008 target year in a format that our cashier can use and provide to the classifiers?

    Regards
    Gary Waalkes
     
  20. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,538
    Location:
    Oxford MA
    Gary Waalkes the only way that any of this becomes a problem is if your State, Zone or what ever the shoot may be. Has the target requirements all in the same year. If the requirements are combined over multiple years it shouldn't matter.

    Bob Lawless
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.