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"Pull-lit" call and slow pulls?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by vegas blaster, Sep 19, 2009.

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  1. vegas blaster

    vegas blaster TS Member

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    Was shooting registered targets with a group of 27 yard ATA shooters. Shooting our last 5 of 25 I am on post one and the fellow shooting on post 4 calls for a target "Pull-lit", I watch the target sail to the ground with no shot fired. I hear "Pull-it" and again watch the target sail out to the ground unfired upon. So now I look over there at him and he calls "Pull-lit" again another target sails away without him firing. So I says to the scorekeeper: "is that a lost target?" The guy on post 4 calls "Pull-lit" again and now shoots and breaks the target. Turns out the "Pull-it" shooter finishes with 25 str8 and no one including the scorekeeper challenges except me. What's the proper ruling and procedure for this situation?

    Addendum: I am assuming that his justification for not firing was the target was a 'slow-pull' unsatisfactory to his liking but he did not make that claim with me [the inquirer].

    Thanx, JK.

    Thanx to all that offered feedback and input. I concur with this info what I thought would be 'common knowledge' for a 27yd ATA competitor.

    My main motivation for this thread is for the [unnamed] 'violator' [who is a regular on this site] to view the comments and realize his actions do not go unnoticed.
     
  2. vegas blaster

    vegas blaster TS Member

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    Thanx for your feedback, what is a proper course of action to challenge this score in a ATA registered [$$$] event. JK.
     
  3. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    It's the same thing as when we had people pushing the button to release a target. The guy may have been cherry picking his targets but who can say? As a squadmate, you can call him out but there's not much else you can do except make the club aware of his practices. I'd never shoot with him again if I truly felt he was cheating either!

    That's one of the reasons we have voice calls today. Prior, there was a cancer spreading nationwide with this practice and voice calls for the most part curtailed it. Even voice calls certainly didn't put a complete stop to it either. The shooter alone gets to decide whether or not a target is fast or slow. The advent of voice calls made a growing problem much smaller and small problems hardly gets much attention. Hap
     
  4. hrosik123

    hrosik123 Member

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    I believe you are allowed two "failure to fire" before any target is called dead.
     
  5. AveragEd

    AveragEd Well-Known Member

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    There are some shooters who have a long, drawn-out call and want the target at a certain time during that call. Voice releases don't always work well for those folks and when voice releases first came out, I used to see a shooter whose call was like "uuuhhhUUUHHH" and he wanted the target during the louder second half of the call. Unfortunately, the voice releases usually gave it to him as sson as they detected noise and he was constantly turning down targets as fast pulls.

    We always wound up pushing the button for him but I would have liked to start giving him lost targets so he would change his call.

    Ed
     
  6. fracdog

    fracdog TS Member

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    If the target came out in a timely manner it is not a failure to fire it is a loss target.
     
  7. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

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    I don't care how you look at it, this joker was cheating. I have shot with these target pickers before and they need to be challenged. The Unloader has it right, you must challenge his BS right then on the spot as it is happening and embarass them and/or call attention to his crap. Not only is it cheating, it is very disruptive and rude to the rest of the honest shooters.----Matt
     
  8. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    You are probably too late to make a formal complaint. Next time you'll have to do something before moving to the next post or leaving the trap. What you can do for now is to make club management and one of your state association's directors aware of the problem.
     
  9. Remstar311

    Remstar311 Member

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    That is most definitely cherry picking. I would have said something to the puller, then line judge, especially when there is money on the line.
     
  10. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Barry, wasn't that same thing advised when we had people doing the pulling for us? I think so and it didn't work as planned then either. As I read the rule, only the individual shooter can determine whether a target is fast or slow to him? To legally declare lost targets for this practice, the rule wording must be changed? We know he's cheating, same as some people did before voice calls were invented. Till that's addressed, rule wise, nothing will change is my take as long as it's up to the shooter to determine what's fast or slow to him! Hap
     
  11. vpr80

    vpr80 Active Member

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    what is this "fast" or "slow" pull targets that you guys are referring to? you mean time between the call and the bird going out?

    i was under the impression that if you see a solid bird fly on your call and you don't pull the trigger then it's a lost bird. mech malfunctions aside, it seems like a horrible case of cherry picking.
     
  12. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    "2-When a whole target appears promptly after a contestant's recognizable command and is within the legal limits of flight and the contestant voluntarily does not fire:"

    John, the only thing that overrides this rule is either a fast or slow pull, which a contestant may turn down? How that happens is with a call duration which is mentioned above by Average Ed. It was just such calls that led to inventing voice releases in the first place.

    We know the guys are cheating, how do we legally put a stop to it is the question? "recognizable" to who and wouldn't that depend on another's ability to hear minute sounds also? Hap
     
  13. Hauxfan

    Hauxfan Well-Known Member

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    Hap, at the Grand one year, a guy was actually getting slow pulls, but the puller disagreed with him and said they were on time and the next one he turned down, she called it a lost bird.

    I was there, and tried to argue the older gentleman's position, but the puller would not budge. So he after that, he shot all of the pulls and some of them were slow. He ended up with a terrible score on that trap.

    Hauxfan!
     
  14. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Haux, she was doing the pulling I'd guess by hand? Regardless, the old man didn't know the rule or he would have called a line referee or didn't care. She would have lost that battle pretty quick.

    JF, most shooters don't know what the rule book says let alone kids just trying to earn a few bucks with most never seeing a rule book. Other than that, I agree with you but nowhere does the rule book say we must shoot a fast or slow pull either. Hap
     
  15. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    I believe he is speaking of me, it was on the first 25 targets, My call is PULL-IT, I recieved prompt target releases on post 5-1-2-3-, My starting post was post 5 all pulls on the first 4 stations were on time, but on post 4 I recieved 3 slow target releases, after the 2nd one I moved the speaker closer to me, closer than usual, and still got a slow pull and stated slow pull on each target relese, then the targets came out on time, like maybe a loose connection on that speaker. At no time on the next 75 targets did I turn down a target and they were all on time.

    At no time on the next 3 hdcp events I shot did I get a slow pull or turn down a target. I had noticed when I was watching the previous squad slow pulls were coming off the post 4 speaker.

    I use the PULL-IT call so anytime during that call of mine if a target appears
    I shoot it, I developed it when hand pulling was being done to allow for slow pulls.

    I do not and never have had a complaint about turning down targets in my 41 years of shooting.

    The target that came out on time was a hard angle, the ones that were slow were a little to the right of center. I know when a target is slow but those 2 were really slow, and very noticeable to me.

    I am not and never have been accused of being a cherry picker, and turning down
    pulls. I actually could not believe it was happening as I had already shot 20 targets w/o a problem on that trap.

    If I get a slow pull it is my decision whether it is a slow pull or not.

    Why did it happen on my last post?



    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  16. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    Check with one of my squadmates that used to manage Middletown Sportsmans club,
    Chuck Hazlett and ask him If I have had complaints of turning down targets, He knows me for about 35 years of shooting.

    Ask him if I turned down any other targets of the events, he shot my squad on all events that I shot.

    Talk about harassment!!!!

    I declared to the puller SLOW TARGET EVERY TIME.






    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  17. BIGDON

    BIGDON Well-Known Member

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    Sorry "Longshot the Great" it is not your decision. That's the exact reason they put in voice calls. Two failures to fire and then "LOST". If you are getting slow pulls call TRAP REPAIR.

    Don
     
  18. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    Hap. In 40 years of shooting I have only seen one man called for intentionally turning down targets. In this case it took an ATA executive, following the shooter down the line, and overruling the puller/scorer's "no target."

    The shooter had a reputation for turning down targets and many complained but only one man had the guts to call this shooter on it. In years past I have made complaints and seen others do the same but until the above incident, I've never seen it enforced.

    It should be enforced more but folks don't like confrontation.
     
  19. AveragEd

    AveragEd Well-Known Member

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    Gary, I experienced the same thing just last week during an evening league shoot. While watching the squad ahead of mine shoot, I noticed the post two shooter on what would eventually be our second trap turning down a couple of targets until he fiddled with the positioning of the voice release microphone. When we got to that trap, almost every shooter on our squad got at least one "slow pull" on post two. Since I start on post three, I knew what to expect and moved the microphone right in front of me so I could look down through my arms with my gun mounted and see it. I got five perfect "pulls."

    Sometimes, you just encounter a microphone that needs attention and you have to position it so nothing interferes with the sound of your call.

    Ed
     
  20. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Barry, I too have only seen targets taken away from one man. That was at the Ca state shoot many years back. It was during a shoot-off and the referee stood directly behind the man and called his targets lost when turned them down.

    I hate cheating of any kind and I feel some do take advantage at times too. If I suspect one is doing that, I ask why and what's wrong? Most times it's pretty obvious as Ed and others have said, bad connections etc. Turning down the hard angles from the corners is suspect to me unless that voice call has been troublesome for all. Hap
     
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