1. Attention: We have put together a thread with tips and a tutorial video to help with using the new software. Please take a moment to check out the thread here: Trapshooters.com Tutorial & Help Video.
    Dismiss Notice

Promo vs Clays and Red Dot - HELP Pat/Neil

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by lancelot, Sep 2, 2007.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. lancelot

    lancelot Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    147
    I understand the composition of Promo. I know that it is remnants of various powders of the same burn speed as RD that for some reason of other didn't meet the standard of a particular flagship.

    One of the Allient guru's once told me that the only reason to shoot Promo is ecomony. I know it is a little dirtier than new Red Dot (big whoop). Other than that do you two gentlemen know any reason to spend the extra money to buy Red Dot?

    Thanks, fellows for your usual enlighting opinons.

    Ron Ireland.
     
  2. Shotgunbutch

    Shotgunbutch Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    210
    NO

    Arnie
     
  3. phirel

    phirel TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,556
    Batches of powder sometimes come out different. The primary variable is the cellulose (ground up trees)that goes into the mix. In order for Alliant to sell Red Dot on the reloader market, 18 grains of the powder must produce the same energy and have the same volume as 18 grains or Red Dot produced in 1920, 1940, 1960 and last year. The batches that are a little off are sold to shell manufacturers and now to us as Promo. The disadvantage of Promo is that a bushing that dropped 18 grains of one batch may only drop 17.6 grains from another batch. Bushing changes may be required for different lots. That makes us do the same thing the shell manufacturers do.

    I can think of a good reason you, and only you, should spend the extra money for Red Dot. For years, I would scan the pay off sheets at the Grand. I got excited when I saw the name Ireland but quickly became disappointed when I saw Ron, and not Pat, after the name. You should spend the money I momentarily thought I won to buy Red Dot for you and all of your squad mates.

    Pat Ireland
     
  4. lancelot

    lancelot Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    147
    Cousin Pat -

    You must have caught one of the the muniscule # of sheets that had the Ron on them. All of those I have looked at over the years say Pat.

    Best to you. Ron
     
  5. lancelot

    lancelot Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    147
    Perazzi Big Bore-

    It's my understanding that you are exactly right, but it doesn't just pertain to American Select. It could be American Select, E3, Green Dot, etc. that have for some reason have produced a burning speed of Red Dot, and not their own assighed burning rate. Allient suggested to me to always give the container a real good shake before pouring, and to weigh measurements from each new container you open, Easy enough.

    I can't for the life of me figure out why you would get better loads from one of their premium powders than Promo. Thought some of you experts could tell me is I'm missing anything.

    Best regards, Ron
     
  6. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2006
    Messages:
    8,354
    Location:
    Nashville Tn
    Why would one pay more for gasoline for their car to get identical performance?

    Gunpowder is fuel, pure and simple. The burn speed of Promo is time tested. You should use a scale when you load with ANY powder, so buy it and save the money.

    Promo is GREAT!
     
  7. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2006
    Messages:
    4,003
    I've had more variations with Red Dot over the past few years, than I had with Promo. Red Dot was off more than a MEC bushing size between two different lots I purchased last year. For the money, Promo is a winner. I usually buy at least two jugs of the same lot number at the time. I experience less variation that way. I see little difference in patterning or performance.
     
  8. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,460
    Location:
    SE PA
    I agree that over the past few years Red Dot has more variablity than its historic norm. There was a long spell where it was denser than normal. Not it is back up to its historic bulk, but does not provide the energy you would expect. For the very first time I've had to use more powder than "normal" to get listed velocity. The difference was apparent without a chrono.

    The reason I don't use Promo is I live in an area that gets cold, and I shoot in the winter. PBB is not quite correct in his statement that Promo consists of Am Select, e3, etc. that somehow turned out to be Red Dot speed. If that were the case, there would be no down side to using Promo. What actually occurs is Alliant blends end lots of OEM powders of different_burning_rates to achieve a final blend with the same energy grain for grain as Red Dot. That's why you can directly substitute Promo for Red Dot in any published recipe. Many, including me occasionally, just shorten that to "Red Dot" speed. That is misleading.

    The composition of Promo varies from lot to lot. That is not a secret. It's how Alliant gets rid of end lots and batches of powder it could not readily sell otherwise. Because composition is variable, the actual components of the powder determines how it will perform in cold weather. At 85+ degrees almost anything that goes bang delivers the velocity (or more) the recipe states. Cool things down to 50 degrees and things change. Drop the temp to 30 degrees and you have a completely different ball game.

    So, say you're a one ounce shooter with a favorite load of STS hull, STS 209 primer, TGT-12 wad with 1oz hard shot with 17gr of Red Dot. That happens to be one of my favorite loads. I know how it perform year 'round, because I've used it for years. Now suppose you duplicated that load with two different batches of Promo. One batch was mostly Am Select with just enough e3 mixed in to equal Red Dot's energy. The second batch was mostly e3 with a sprinkling of Am Select. What do you think is going to happen when the temp is 40 degrees? How will the two Promo loads compare to the Red Dot load at 40 degrees?

    Alliant's published recipes for 1oz loads using the components I mentioned above, and the three powders mentioned are (listed in descending burn rate order):

    e3- 16gr @ 7970psi
    Red Dot- 17gr @ 8305psi
    Am Sel- 17gr @ 6925psi

    I've verified the velocities of these three loads and know them to deliver very close to the 1150fps the manual claims in warm weather. If you compare the two lots of Promo against the Red Dot control at 40 degrees or colder, you'll find the lot that is mostly e3 will maintain pressure and velocity well, maybe even better than Red Dot. The Promo lot that is mostly Am Select will not maintain pressure and velocity. It will perform poorly, as many complained last winter in this forum and at the clubs I shoot at.

    Promo's compositional variability is why I don't use it. The cost difference between Promo and Clay Dot (a superb powder) is $7 per 8lb jug; between Promo and Red Dot is $10 per 8lb jug. That amounts to a $15 savings per 5,000 loads using Promo instead of Red Dot. That difference is just not worth it to me.
     
  9. mrskeet410

    mrskeet410 TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,064
    Promo is a mix of E3 and American Select? Blend an expensive powder with a medium priced powder to make a cheap powder. How'd they do that?
    At a regional supplier:

    American Select - $89.95/8 lbs;

    E3 - $103.95/8 lbs;

    Promo - $73.95/8 lbs.
     
  10. smartass

    smartass TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2006
    Messages:
    1,099
    It's amazing how people belived what some self-appointed expert tells them. Why speculate when you can find out the facts?

    There was an article about Promo in the Jun 2001 issue of Shotgun Sports magazine. The author, R.H. VanDenburg, Jr., actually asked Alliant how promo was made. Imagine that, actually asking a reliable source rather than speculating!

    The bottom line is that Promo is made from blending one specific OEM grade of American Select and one specific OEM grade of Red Dot in equal proportions to get a powder that has the same burning rate as canister-grade Red Dot. All the BS about Promo being just a mixture of left over powders is just that- total BS.
     
  11. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,460
    Location:
    SE PA
    meskeet410, Promo is a blend of powders. It is not specifically made up of e3 and Am Select. I used those powders by way of example.

    Anon, you have only to call Alliant and ask them what the composition of Promo is. I did, twice. Once about 2 years ago and once recently. You will be enlightened, and corrected.
     
  12. smartass

    smartass TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2006
    Messages:
    1,099
    zzt, why should I call them when Mr. VanDenburg already did exactly that? All I care about is that Promo works fine for me.
     
  13. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2006
    Messages:
    4,003
    The primers that are used in cold weather can have a large impact on Promo's performance too, as well as the amount of powder you use. Light loads might have more of an issue than heavier loads, etc. I noticed that one popular budget primer was horrible with one particular lot of Promo last winter. A different primer solved the issue. If economy is the goal, then Promo is usually a good choice.The difference between Promo and Clay Dot when I last purchased powder, was about $14 a jug. That's enough of an incentive to use Promo if there is no real loss of performance.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.