1. Attention: We have put together a thread with tips and a tutorial video to help with using the new software. Please take a moment to check out the thread here: Trapshooters.com Tutorial & Help Video.
    Dismiss Notice

promo- recoil compared to clays/int'l clays?

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by skeet_man, Sep 14, 2008.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. skeet_man

    skeet_man Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    10,531
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Anyone have a recoil comparison of promo vs clays or int'l clays? I'm just getting back into reloading 12ga, and the price savings of promo is attractive, but I want to keep recoil as low as possible. Load will be 1 1/8oz in a Remington hull.
     
  2. WoodsonEnt

    WoodsonEnt Active Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2008
    Messages:
    2,410
    Ian, I believe recoil is less with Promo.

    Matt - Woodson Enterprises
     
  3. Little Dog

    Little Dog TS Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2007
    Messages:
    531
    If the velocity is the same, the recoil will be the same.
     
  4. glenn mcleod

    glenn mcleod Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    528
    Little Dog, Are you trolling? The total recoil may be the same but the preceived recoil may feel less or more to different individuals. IE- Federal 2 3/4 dram plastic NEW shells feel like a very sharp recoil to me when compared to a 2 3/4 dram STS. Possibly the wad? Also,Load 1200 FPS shells using PB powder and load 1145 fps loads with Red Dot using all other equal components and if you don't know what shell you are using the 1200 fps loads will be "softer" because of the longer burn time even though they are the heavier load. My opinion only but based on a serious rotator cuff surgery and recovery period. Also, the most recent was the Nitro 27 loads, sharp when they used Int'n Clays and softer with the Titegroup powder. I think most will agree with this if they have used both. Glenn
     
  5. skeet_man

    skeet_man Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    10,531
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    should have said too load is going to be 1145fps
     
  6. WoodsonEnt

    WoodsonEnt Active Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2008
    Messages:
    2,410
    Ian,

    Here are some loads that I have used. Of course, I am a Downrange dealer so they are using Downrange Wads and Promo.

    STS hull, Chedditte primer, XL-11/8 or Fig 8 wad, 17.5 grains of Promo is 1145fps.
    STS hull, Chedditte primer, Versalite wad, 17.5 grains of Promo is 1145fps.
    My favorite load is STS hull, Chedditte Primer, Jammer XL-1 wad, 18.0 grains of Promo, 1 ounce of shot is 1200fps.
    I do not know the pressure of these. I do know the pressures using Hodgdon Clays and International Clays. If you need that info, let me know.

    Matt - Woodson Enterprises
    "The Scattergun Store"
     
  7. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2006
    Messages:
    4,003
    Same payload, same velocity, same recoil. Promo is a great powder and I use quite a bit of it. It costs quite a bit less than Clays or International Clays.
     
  8. HSLDS

    HSLDS Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2006
    Messages:
    6,394
    Location:
    S-E PA
    Quack Shot,

    Sorry, but you may have failed physics...

    The important issue here is ACCELERATION - i.e., the 'burn rate' for the powder as it relates to perceived recoil.

    The faster the burn rate, the faster the transfer of energy will be for the recoil, the slower the burn rate, the slower the transfer.

    Perceived recoil is based on the perception of this transfer. The final velocity isn't important - in fact, given identical payload and final velocity, the powder with the slower burn rate will give a perceived recoil which is less.

    The total energy transferred for the two loads will be the same, but the one that takes LONGER to do this will have a lower perceived recoil.

    David D.
     
  9. Jim101

    Jim101 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,942
    Location:
    Knob Noster, Mo
    HSLDS, I would like to believe what you say. Do you have any peer reviewed scientific experiment results to support your position?






    Jim
     
  10. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2006
    Messages:
    8,357
    Location:
    Nashville Tn
    Hey guys, felt recoil is how my body feels after a flat on the field. I have been hearing at the club that the newest batches of Promo are softer shooting than many other powders. Who am I to argue with them?

    At the least, it is domestically made, a great powder and a good deal that Alliant has made for us. Thanks, Alliant.
     
  11. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2006
    Messages:
    4,003
    HSLDS

    We have all hashed this out before. The difference is a very small fraction of a second, and I'm sure no normal human can tell the difference. As for Physics, you'd not like to have been one of my students. Or maybe we should begin your education? The difference between some powders is about 3/10,000 of a second. Mash the link above to peruse. Be sure to check out Neil Winston's pressure graphs.

    http://www.trapshooters.com/cfpages/sthread.cfm?ThreadID=163075

    Perception may have more to do with the sound or vibration felt by the shooter rather than the recoil energy.

    Sorry, but I don't buy your theory.
     
  12. Dove Commander

    Dove Commander TS Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2007
    Messages:
    1,364
    If you want to tame the recoil, use a windjammer wad,and /or reduce the load (1oz). Then shoot it in an auto, or install a PFS, Soft touch, Stock Lock, Bump buster or similiar device. It's common sense.
     
  13. Dennisw

    Dennisw Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    339
    So to answer your question about Recoil difference in Clays and Promo

    I shoot the same load 17.2 of Clays and Promo, with 1 ounce in a AA hull or STS hull, with AA wad and primer. I cant tell the difference from Clays to Promo. If you mix the shells and put them in the same box, I bet you couldnt either.

    However, The Promo does not work well in colder temperatures (below 50), it is very inconsistant in cold weather. I shoot Clays in the winter and Promo in the summer.
     
  14. HSLDS

    HSLDS Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2006
    Messages:
    6,394
    Location:
    S-E PA
    Quack Shot,

    Thanks for the link - I remember reading that one...

    Sorry, my response was theoretical not actual. You did not mention the difference in the acceleration rates which I assumed you missed - my bad.

    A study was done with rifle muzzle brakes (I think it was Answer Products) where they designed a test jig to measure actual recoil over time. I'll try to find it, but they came up with measurable differences in recoil using faster and slower powders.

    Not sure if this would work with shotguns, but it does beg the question...

    David D
     
  15. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2006
    Messages:
    4,003
    HSLDS

    If there is a difference, it would be small and imperceptible. Probably about that of an extra piece of #8 shot or less.
     
  16. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2006
    Messages:
    8,357
    Location:
    Nashville Tn
    WHO OUT THERE IS CALLING US NORMAL? LOL
     
  17. phirel

    phirel TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,556
    Quack Shot- You forgot the degree of sensitivity that some seem to have. They can shoot a box of one load, go back into the club house and visit for a while and then go out and shoot another box. They are able, so it seems, to tell that one shell is reaching peak pressure 3-5/10,000 of a second faster than the other shell.

    Never underestimate trap shooters.

    Pat Ireland

    Would you care to talk about the difference in perceived recoil resulting from mounting your gun 1/16 of an inch higher or lower along with a difference in burning rate of 3/10,000 of a second?
     
  18. HSLDS

    HSLDS Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2006
    Messages:
    6,394
    Location:
    S-E PA
    Pat,

    GREAT idea on the placement of the butt with gun mount - gotta think on this one.

    David D
     
  19. claybrdr

    claybrdr Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,267
    Noticed the price has really shot up very recently. A couple months ago I got 16# from Grafs for $150. I see from their website that Connies is charging $200 today. I found the lowest price today to be from Gamaliel, who is cheaper than Graf and Connies.

    Hell, at $100 bucks for 8 pounds it is more expensive than Red Dot is at other places.
     
  20. mrskeet410

    mrskeet410 TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,064
    Skeet-man - Lots of different opinions on this. You'll have to make your own decision. Suggest you load of equivelant loads of each powder, and get a helper to give you a blind-blind test. See how you do.

    I know, you want to know before you buy 8 pounds of Promo, but maybe you can mooch enough off a friend for a half dozen test shells.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.