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Procedure For Declaring Illegal Target

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by In plain view, Apr 23, 2013.

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  1. In plain view

    In plain view Member

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    In accordance with the Offical Rules of the ATA the delivery of legal targets is well defined but I see nothing in said rules that state the procedures to follow in the event a legitimate illegal target is thrown and the shooter refuses to shoot at it. What is the procedure to follow in order to declare the target illegal and ask for another target without being penalized? Screaming super hard lefts on post 1 and those miserable screamers coming out of post 5 has prompted this inquiry. Bob in Los Angeles
     
  2. Unknown1

    Unknown1 Well-Known Member

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    Looks like you don't do anything... the scorekeeper does it:

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    </center>

    Keller
     
  3. mixer

    mixer Well-Known Member

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    If it's not called an illegal by the scorer and you don't shoot at it, it would be considered a failure to fire. You get 2 FTF's per 25 target events.

    Eric
     
  4. In plain view

    In plain view Member

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    Not sure about scorekeepers in other states but there's not a scorer here in California that could tell you if a target is legal or not. Vast majority are very young, squat for experience and havent had an ounce of training. Maybe my question lacked clarity but here is an example of what I'm trying to determine.
    1: Standing on post 5 a super hard right target emerges from the trap house
    and to me it's clearly illegal and I dont shoot. Do I turn to the score-
    keeper and state it was an illegal target and proceed to call for another
    target?
    2: Or do I turn to the scorekeeper and declare a "failure to fire" even
    though my gun was functioning perfectly. I'm aware I have 2 FF's per
    round. Not overly fond of this tactic though. Bob
     
  5. 320090T

    320090T Well-Known Member

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    If the score keeper can't handle an illegal target call, he isn't going to do well with a FTF either. If I get one, and it isn't often, I just don't shoot. I open my gun, reset, call for another bird. I have never been questioned and if they do I would just say it was illegal and see what happens. Worse case, take a FTF.
     
  6. Unknown1

    Unknown1 Well-Known Member

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    You're question was clear. You asked what the procedure was and there it is.

    Now the organizing body can't provide help that can execute the rules, if it was me I'd poll the squad about the target and then ask for a ruling from the scorekeeper. Can't be that complicated. If the scorekeeper balks, hold up the show until someone in authority showed up to make a decision. That might also impress'em with the consequences of using untrained help.

    Keller
     
  7. coyote1234

    coyote1234 Member

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    ATA Rulebook

    Section 7
    Paragraph C
    Subsection 2

    The scorer shall rule LOST:

    When a whole target appears promptly after a contestant's recognizable command and is within the legal limits of flight and contestant voluntarily does not fire.

    Section 7
    Paragraph E
    Subsection 8

    The scorer shall rule NO TARGET:

    When an illegal target is thrown, which is a target that is not within the prescribed angle or height limits for singe target shooting...and the contestant does not fire.

    It would be my interpretation that the scorer/referee must make a ruling of NO TARGET before you would be able to legally call for a new target.
     
  8. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

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    If by chance a target is illegal and you shoot at it the end result counts, hit or miss ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  9. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Mixer, IPV, these are _not_ failures to fire.

    If the target is illegal, they are "No target."

    If the target is not illegal, they are "Lost."

    No matter what , in no way ever are they failures to fire.

    Neil
     
  10. FRedmon

    FRedmon Active Member

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    I turned down an illegal right handed popup NY Style bird Sunday. Then two Senior Vets (one 89) broke two of them back to back.......

    As in plain view said - very few refs really know the rules anymore. You would think the ATA could create a course to familiarize folks that score before they put them on the field....

    FRedmon
     
  11. glenns

    glenns Member

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    I shot with someone who refused to shoot at a number of hard rights. He just called for the next bird and no one said a word.

    I don't know how you can judge a bad bird and decide not to shoot at it in a split second.

    Does the squad leader have a duty to enforce the rules or is it up to the scorer who in a lot of cases are not experienced enough to know the rules?
     
  12. himark

    himark Well-Known Member

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    I believe his real question is...."what is the procedure for declaring" He is wondering as a SHOOTER what to do and when to question targets. (good question IMO) I have yet to see a score keeper get off the chair and say...."woe woe lets reset these targets there are ILLEGAL" I believe a squad can ask for targets to be checked BEFORE an event starts. But once the event has started I believe they must finish it something about shoot harmony. And the final call if targets are legal or not is up to the shoot management. I wish the rule book would specifically address this but I dont think they do in clear and precise language?
     
  13. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

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    "Does the squad leader have a duty to enforce the rules......."


    The squad leader is just another shooter of the squad who happens to be on Post 1. They have no authority over anything. That said, I've shot on some squads where the squad leader thought they were some sort of special referee/scorer/field supervisor/shooter.
     
  14. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    himark, you really ought to read the rulebook sometime. It does address it, in the clear and precise language you desire, but you haven't read it, that's all. Not the rulebook's fault.

    Neil
     
  15. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Here's what you do.

    You call for a target and it comes out in one piece, alone, on time, is not an odd color, but is illegal because it is ten degrees outside on what's being thrown or is a flipper.

    You don't shoot at it, (If you do, as WPT says, it's scored in the usual way) and, as you take the gun down, you tell the scorer that you didn’t shoot because it was illegally right or left or it was a flipper.

    If the scorer agrees (which he or she will certainly do, the first time anyway . . .) he or she should say "No target" and you just go on shooting. If the scorer disagrees, the target it "lost." It is _not_ a failure to fire, since you voluntarily did not fire. You had a good and fair reason not to, but you declined to shoot voluntarily.

    If the scorer has no idea what you are even talking about (it sometimes happens) , unload your gun, walk back to the chair, and explain the rules and that you think that the target fell under the "illegal target" rule and he or she should rule "No target."

    I've never encountered any problem doing this and I don't think you will either.

    If someone on your squad is just failing to shoot targets, ask him or her what is going on. Thereafter, ask about any repeats. They usually go away.

    Neil
     
  16. jdsfarms

    jdsfarms Well-Known Member

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    Call for it,see it,determine it's not legal,don't shoot at it,that simple.Jerry
     
  17. Stl Flyn

    Stl Flyn Well-Known Member

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    I know it has to be before you hear the word, loss or lost!
     
  18. Beni

    Beni Member

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    I watched a squad with a female shooter who called for the target, out came a perfect bird but was way to the right of the out of bounds, she called illeagle target did not shoot and the score keeper said bird was within the parameters of the field,lost bird. We as spectators agreed to us it looked out of bounds. Happened at the Northeast Garand with an older guy scoring,she had to take it as lost bird beni........
     
  19. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Should have called for a video replay of the target in question. HMB
     
  20. spitter

    spitter Well-Known Member TS Supporters

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    how about a few more stakes out in the field to determine angle boundries... that should get some folks going...

    Jay
     
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