1. Attention: We have put together a thread with tips and a tutorial video to help with using the new software. Please take a moment to check out the thread here: Trapshooters.com Tutorial & Help Video.
    Dismiss Notice

Primers and sts shells

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Rick (Pa), Jan 8, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Rick (Pa)

    Rick (Pa) TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    223
    Not to long ago there was a thread about primers sticking out of once fired sts shells. I can't find it. Can anyone point me to it. Thanks in advance.

    Rick
     
  2. wayneo

    wayneo Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,002
    Try that link. ^^^^

    Wayne
     
  3. WNCRob

    WNCRob Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2007
    Messages:
    594
    This is peculiar to reloaders which do not support the base from the inside (e.g PW) when primers are inserted into Rem hulls, particularly steel-based hulls AND using non-Remington primers. Rem. primers work fine, but others that do not have the rounded nose that Rem primers do will often not seat fully.

    A lot of threads on this issue.

    WNCRob
     
  4. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,539
    Location:
    Oxford MA
    "This is peculiar to reloaders which do not support the base from the inside (e.g PW) when primers are inserted into Rem hulls, particularly steel-based hulls AND using non-Remington primers."

    I am not sure what you are trying to say but a PW pushes directly on the primer. Which in turn pushes the hull against the die that then pushes against the turret of the press. Highly unlikely that the hull will give in the center!!!!! So how do you feel that they do not give support to the base????

    Bob Lawless
     
  5. skeet_man

    skeet_man Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    10,528
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    With the MEC, you force the hull onto the primer. The primer is in a fixed position, and you are pressing the hull onto it.

    With the PW, the exact opposite happens, the hull is in a fixed position, and you are pressing the primer into it.

    HOWEVER, the hull on the PW isn't really in a fixed position. There is a lot of wiggle room between the hull and the die, and the die and the carrier. Sometimes you'll get a hull that the brass is a little oversize, and will fit snugly, flush with the bottom of the die, other times you'll get a hull that slides freely in the die, and the bottom of the hull ends up below grade. The ones that sit below grade are the ones that end up with proud primers.

    Take your die out of the carrier, and play with a couple hulls, you'll see what I mean. You can also see the play b/w the carrier and die when you reprime, as the die is pushed up into the carrier.

    The problem is tolerances. The PW is made to work with any hull you could feed it. If it were made to tighter tolerances, the issue would disappear, but then you'd have trouble with it working with some types of hulls. When I had my PW, I actually ended up flipping my carrier over, since this held the dies a little tighter to the press on the reprime station. Helped, but didn't solve the problem 100%.

    Ended up getting rid of the PW and going back to MEC 9000s. Never an issue regardless of hull and primer combination. If you have proud primers with a 9000, simply lower the powder drop tube. If you have proud primers with a PW, you're pretty much SOL.
     
  6. Unknown1

    Unknown1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2009
    Messages:
    3,400
    <blockquote><I>"I am not sure what you are trying to say but a PW pushes directly on the primer.</i></blockquote>The PW pushes on the primer but the primer and the hull base around the primer hole aren't supported from behind like they are when a MEC or a cheap little Lee LoadAll seats a primer.<blockquote><I>Highly unlikely that the hull will give in the center!!!!!</I></blockquote>Not only is it highly likely but it's the main cause of incomplete seating of certain primers especially in certain once-fired hulls. You can adjust the primer seating post so high that primer assembly actually becomes the stop for the traveling crosshead, push like mad and use up all the movement you've got, and still not be able to seat primers in certain hulls because of the compliance of the turret under pressure and the distortion of the hull base around the primer hole.<blockquote><I>So how do you feel that they do not give support to the base????</I></blockquote>There is a big difference between "supporting the rim" and "supporting the base"!

    Keller
     
  7. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,539
    Location:
    Oxford MA
    SM the PW can be adjusted to take all the wiggle out of the machine if you know what you are doing.

    Obviously you don't or you would know that with out having to be told. Put a shell in the die, cycle it through to the priming station and push up/back on the handle. See how much wiggle you find in the carrier as you call it when the handle is all the way back.

    BTW SM you can try the same thing at the shell starting station bring the handle all the way down. While it is down there see if the carrier has any wiggle.

    I own 4 PWs, 1 800b, 2 900s, 1 950 and I have never had a problem with the so called "proud primers". The 950 doesn't even have dies just shell holders. I will put the shell in the die with any of my presses except my 950. Then I will give you the die with the shell in it you see if you can get it out without hammering on the shell.

    Keller talking to you isn't worth the effort. No has any information as good as your. You know everything, if you don't believe me just ask yourself you will get an answer you seek.

    Bob Lawless
     
  8. skeet_man

    skeet_man Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    10,528
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    I'm not talking about wiggle in the carrier itself, I'm talking about the play b/w the die and the carrier, which CANNOT be adjusted out unless you start machining on parts. This play is what causes the "click click click" sound as the dies move up and down on the various stations.

    However, I think the BIGGEST cause of proud primers is the tolerance in the die. If the dies were machined so the hull sat at the same level every time (dead flush with the bottom of the die), the issue would disappear. However, sometimes you'll get one that sits below flush, because the recess in the die for the rim is cut deeper than it needs to be, and you get a proud primer.

    "I will put the shell in the die with any of my presses except my 950. Then I will give you the die with the shell in it you see if you can get it out without hammering on the shell." That was NOT the case with my 800+. Most of the cases would be pretty tight in the die, but there were more than a few which would slide in and out freely.

    I really couldn't care less at this point, I'm back to 9000s, and wouldn't load on a 800+ again if someone gave me one for free. I bought my PW for one reason and one reason only, to get better looking 28ga reloads. Not only did my 28ga reloads not get any better, at best they stayed the same, while all my other gauges came out looking worse than what I got off of 9000s. Also, I spent more $ on replacement parts in a few months with my PW than I have spend on MEC parts over the course of a dozen presses over my career (and I am very mechanically inclined, and far from a neophyte when it comes to reloaders).

    The only loader that MAY ever replace my 9000s again would be a Spolar, and I doubt I'll ever be able to justify the price for one.

    BTW, I wasn't being confrontational with you, there is absolutely no need to be confrontational with me.
     
  9. Unknown1

    Unknown1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2009
    Messages:
    3,400
    <blockquote><I>"Keller talking to you isn't worth the effort."</I></blockquote>THEN QUIT DOING IT, DAMNIT!        EVEN YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO FIGURE THAT OUT!!      I WON'T MISS HEARING FROM YOU ONE BIT!!

    <CENTER>YOU'VE GOT THE CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO REMAIN SILENT...WHY NOT USE IT?</CENTER>

    Keller
     
  10. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,539
    Location:
    Oxford MA
    "This play is what causes the "click click click" sound as the dies move up and down on the various stations."

    SM If the primer station is doing its job when you push the handle up/back to seat the primer which is when it is seated. the wiggle must be out of the machine or the primer won't be seated. That upstroke distance is adjustable as a matter of fact. The 800+ is easier to adjust than the older machines. Unless you buy the newer adjustable parts to convert them.

    As Keller said,

    "You can adjust the primer seating post so high that primer assembly actually becomes the stop for the traveling crosshead"

    If the Die and the carrier are what you think gets the primer seated. Then adjusting the primer seating post until there is no upward movement in the die and carrier would seem to be what is needed. As I have said you don't understand the way it works.

    If you found me confrontational I think you only have you to blame for that. You immediatly start to criticze the PW even though you don't own one any longer and I know from past experience that that what you are saying is not strickly true. Those type of things tend to make me confrontational. Also I didn't say one bad word about your favorite machines. MEC

    "THEN QUIT DOING IT, DAMNIT! EVEN YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO FIGURE THAT OUT!!"

    Keller isn't that what I did???? I told you why and then quit the subject with you. Sounds to me just like what I did.

    BTW YOU DON'T NEED TO SHOUT IT IS RUDE.

    Bob Lawless
     
  11. JerryP

    JerryP Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,753
    ivanhoe , Hard to believe you have never seen this problem. I have a PW Platinum with shell holders. I don't like to load Rem hulls because of the "proud primers." I refuse to pay the price for Rem primers. The PW seats the primer by pushing the primer in from the bottom. There is no force from the back side to squeeze it in like a pair of pliers would. "

    " Highly unlikely that the hull will give in the center!!!!! "

    The brass most certainly will give. I have adjusted the press to put extra pressure on stubborn Rem hulls and made the brass concave while the primer was still not seated. Just like Keller described. There is simply no way to adjust for this problem. The shape of the REm primer pocket is the exact opposite of the rem primer. Other brands have a straight cylindrical primer pocket. That is the problem. There is a ridge of plastic at the top of the Rem primer pocket that has to yield to seat a non-rem primer. Sometimes, it simply will not yield. Those result in a slightly high primer. One cannot adjust for that or the normal hulls will have a primer set too deep.

    As for a Spolar, they seat the primer same a PW so they would also have to have the same problem with Rem hulls. A Spolar is like a high end gun, not necessary but nice to have.

    The PW press does have play due to tolerances but that is mostly eliminated by the time the press reaches the end of the stroke. Not sure it is possible to completely eliminate because the press will give a little as more pressure is applied.

    Skeet man

    "However, I think the BIGGEST cause of proud primers is the tolerance in the die. If the dies were machined so the hull sat at the same level every time (dead flush with the bottom of the die), the issue would disappear."

    If there was absolutely no give in the press and no tolerances the problem would be minimized but may not be eliminated because the brass would give. But the primer would be flush with the edge of the brass. You could shoot the shell and everything would flatten out. That is not really a solution.
     
  12. Unknown1

    Unknown1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2009
    Messages:
    3,400
    <blockquote><I>"You immediatly start to criticze the PW even though you don't own one any longer..."</I></blockquote>Crank up your reading comprehension and pay more attention to what I say if you're going to damn me for it; I've posted numerous times that I own 6 PWs...all 900s. Four are in regular use and 2 are being refurbished. Most recently...<I>http://www.trapshooters.com/noframes/cfpages/sthread.cfm?ThreadID=310419</I>

    GEEZ!!

    Keller
     
  13. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,539
    Location:
    Oxford MA
    Unknown all I said to you is

    "THEN QUIT DOING IT, DAMNIT! EVEN YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO FIGURE THAT OUT!!"

    Keller isn't that what I did???? I told you why and then quit the subject with you. Sounds to me just like what I did.

    BTW YOU DON'T NEED TO SHOUT IT IS RUDE.

    I did not address you in my last post about how many PW machines you have. You can have 500 of them and I could care less. Don't bother me with your little wanted comments.

    If you crank up your reading comprehension you would know this. You just want an argument that I won't give you. Meathead.

    Bob Lawless
     
  14. skeet_man

    skeet_man Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    10,528
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Bob- You are out of line, and I think you need to step back and cool off a little bit. You keep referring to Keller as "rude", however you are the only rude person I see on this thread. You seem way to invested in this topic to see it objectively, which leaves me scratching my head as to why. I cannot fathom why you would fly off the handle on a subject to which you have no real vested interest in (I assume to have no financial stake in PW), other than the fact that you own a couple presses and someone disagrees with you. I'll be the first one to admit that the MEC machines aren't perfect, but they work best for ME, and if someone has an issue with one of them, I do what I can to help them resolve the issue. I don't berate or belittle someone because they have an issue.

    You can adjust the primer ram to seat primers in the hulls that are flush with the face of the die, or you can adjust the primer ram to seat primers in the hulls which sit below the grade of the die, but you can't do both. You are either going to end up with a primer that is too deep on some shells and won't fire, or one that sits proud occasionally. Simple fact. You also should not be counting on the primer ram to increase the seating depth of the hull in the die. I won't even get into the fact that the steel that most if not all of the PW parts are made of is so soft you can almost cut them with a butter knife (which is why Whiz sells hardened aftermarket replacement parts).

    You are the only one that is arguing that proud primers on a PW is not possible, and on that, you are dead wrong. In addition to my personal press (which it matters not whether I still own it or not, I can remember perfectly well exactly how it functioned), I have 2 close friends who have PW 800+ reloaders, both of which were purchased brand new. Both friends have occasional issues with proud primers in 20, 28, and 410, and they just live with it. You can also google, "ponsness warren proud primers" and you'll find plenty of threads referencing the issue.

    I also have another friend who bought a brand new 800+ with 3-4 gauges a couple years ago. Had major issues with it right out of the box. After trying to have PW walk him through the adjustments on the phone, replacing numerous broken parts (on a brand new machine), and being told to take a hammer to his reloader over the phone (again, on a brand new machine), he boxed everything up, sent it back to the dealer, and took a minor loss on it. He also went back to 9000s.

    I'll tell you what. I'll buy a brand new PW 800+, and have it drop shipped right to your house. You adjust it as you see fit, and ship it to me (I'll cover the shipping costs). The first time I experience a proud primer, you FULLY reimburse me for all of my out of pocket costs, and I'll ship the loader back to you for you to dispose of as you wish. Shouldn't be much of a risk to you since you say non-flush primers with a PW are impossible...

    But in the end, as I said before, the 800+ is behind me, and is a mistake which will not be made twice, so I really don't care.
     
  15. Firewater

    Firewater Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2009
    Messages:
    392
    What about Federal primers? They seem to mic very close to the Remington's as far as diameter and height. Also they seem to be almost the same shape.I only reload Rems and just bought some Federal primers, and have not tried them yet. I think they are probably the best substitute for Remington primers. Anybody have any experince ? Mike
     
  16. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,539
    Location:
    Oxford MA
    "I think you need to step back and cool off a little bit."

    SM first I need you to understand I am not hot, or upset or flying off the handle. I haven't been, well at least not with you since I started posting on this thread.

    "You keep referring to Keller as "rude", however you are the only rude person I see on this thread. You seem way to invested in this topic to see it objectively,"

    Please show me where I said he was rude??? I said he was shouting (all capital letters) which on the internet is considered rude. As a matter of fact right on this screen just below the message window it says and I quote.

    "Avoid shouting: Responses written with all capital letters symbolize shouting. Use capital letters sparingly. A message in all caps is considered rude."

    "Shouldn't be much of a risk to you since you say non-flush primers with a PW are impossible..."

    I would like you to show me where I said that non-flush primers are impossible. I didn't say that I said I have always had no problem with this issue. Your results may varry. Not my problem with that I hope you don't mind but now I will retire for tonight. After all you have changed the topic of the discussion and I don't know what is next and I am not sure I want to know.

    Bob Lawless
     
  17. skeeljc

    skeeljc Supporting Vendor Supporting Vendor

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2007
    Messages:
    3,747
    Location:
    Terre Haute Indiana
    P/W and Spolar loaders support the hull by its outer rim when the primer is seated. The base of the hull can (will) deflect between the rim and the primer pocket. The deflection in the case head is what causes some hard to seat primers to not seat fully. Think of the case head as a spring. If a primer pocket is too tight the case head deflects and the primer does not seat completely.

    MEC and Hornady loaders (probably others too) support the base of the hull from the inside very near the primer pocket so hull deflection is not an issue.

    Jim Skeel<br>P/W Dealer/Distributor
     
  18. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,460
    Location:
    SE PA
    Back to the original issue. STS primers are 0.010" shorter than most of the rest. STS and Gun Club hulls are designed to take STS primers.

    Winchester 209 primers do not have a consistent diameter. The have a step halfway up where the diameter is reduced. This allows them to work perfectly in a Remington hull.

    Federal 209A, for example, do not have the step, are much harder to seat fully in a Rem hull, and often do not seat flush. This is a combination of the extra length and a difference in the radius on the primer pockets of STS/GC and Gold Medal hulls.

    I will only use primers that have copper or brass cup covers (not steel), so that limits my choices. Of those available, I've standardized on the W209 primer. It works perfectly in the STS/GC hulls I reload, and the AA and GM hulls I used to use.
     
  19. Unknown1

    Unknown1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2009
    Messages:
    3,400
    <blockquote><I>"I will only use primers that have copper or brass cup covers (not steel), so that limits my choices. Of those available, I've standardized on the W209 primer."</I></blockquote>ZZT...referring to the industry terminology for the parts of a primer in this photo, which part are you referring to as the "cup cover" or is that not pictured?<center>
    [​IMG]
    </center>

    I know that the battery cups are all steel and I've punched enough primer cups out of Winchester, CCI, Federal, Nobel primers to be sure that every primer cup I punched out also stuck to a magnet. The copper/brass wash on the primer cupis probably just for brand recognition since they all seem to be steel.

    Keller
     
  20. brownk80

    brownk80 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2007
    Messages:
    640
    Everyone, go on line and google "shotgun Primers". There is a chart that shows 8 or 10 different primers and their dimensions. You will see that all primers are not created equal and hence they will seat differently from time to time.

    I have had several different reloaders over the years and the only real problem has been using a smaller primer in a shell that was previously reloaded with a larger primer. Reloaders can be adjusted to load properly (or pretty damn close) if you take the time to do it.

    Brownk80
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.