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primers and powder question

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by mike T, Aug 26, 2009.

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  1. mike T

    mike T Member

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    I am think of using Green Dot for my handicap loads and Clays or American select for my 1oz 16's.

    I am currently using about 18 grains of Red dot for 1 1/8 oz loads and shooting it for everything.

    Can't seem to find and information on loads with Cheddite(sp) primers. Are they equal to what Rem's, Win's or what?? Will be using versilite wads for the 11/8 oz load and Rem hulls

    Using one of the 1oz wads from downrange for that load with rem hulls. and american select or Claydot or Clays poweder for these

    loading the 1 1/8 oz to about 1200fps and the 1oz about 1145 fps

    thanks for your help.
    mike t
     
  2. Andy44

    Andy44 Active Member

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    Mike-

    If you keep your loads around 9000~9500 psi you should have zero issues with using Cheddite primers with Red Dot, Green Dot, Clay Dot or Clays. I have found them to work quite well with 1 1/8oz and 1oz loads at 1200fps and 1250fps, respectfully.

    I would stick with Red Dot for 1oz and 1 1/8oz loads simply to keep it simple, although Green Dot is outstanding for 1 1/8oz Handicap loads!

    AndyH ;-)
     
  3. mike T

    mike T Member

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  4. mike T

    mike T Member

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    anyone help???
     
  5. Old Texas Marine

    Old Texas Marine Member

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    Call Alliant and Hodgdon. They will be more helpful and accurate that we will.

    HBT
     
  6. poacherjoe

    poacherjoe Well-Known Member

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    I use them and Nobel sport primers in my 1 oz loads where the manual calls for W209 and have had zero problems! Others will say it is not safe but I am not loading high pressure loads!Contact the maker and question them and then post it on this thread after I get banged up for my comments. LOL
     
  7. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    poacherjoe

    Actually, Hodgdon says that the Nobel Sport can be safely substituted for the Winchester W209 in their data.

    mike T

    There are really no "equivalent" primers. If you start with a load that develops around 8500 PSI and use a primer of "similar" intensity to the one listed in the data, you would probably be within normal pressure limits. If you use data for the "hottest" primer listed, then substituting another primer might not be as problematic. There are several primers that are considered to be high on the intensity scale. They would be the Federal 209A, The Rio G-600, and the CCI 209M. Unfortunately, the loads do not always follow such a list. Sometimes a primer that is "hot" in one load may end up being "mild" in another. It's a crap shoot. If you start with a moderate pressure load, hopefully you will end up with a moderate pressure load. I've seen data where the "Usually Mild" Remington STS primer is the hottest one listed. If you treat the Cheddite's as a little hotter than the Winchester W209, you'd probably be in the ballpark 80% of the time.

    The problem here is that you want to substitute a primer and possibly the wad as well. Many loads using the Versalite Wad seem to produce a little higher pressure than some of the other wads like the WAA12 and Figure 8s. That could be because of some different primers used in the data or to the wad itself. Using a slightly slower powder like Green Dot would be a wise thing for the 1200 fps 1 1/8 oz loads. That would probably buy you a little headroom for a slight pressure increase. I would think that 20.0 grains of Green Dot with the Cheddite primer and Versalite wad would be within reasonable pressure limits, and get you somewhere close to 1200 fps. You can check with Alliant and also give Kevin Lewis at Downrange a call. He has been a good resource for data on their wads.

    I'd be more cautious with powders like Clays. It seems like they can stack up pressures dramatically with little changes in components and charge weights. You didn't say which wad you were using for the 1oz loads, so I can't really comment on a specific load.

    A have not seen too many issues with Cheddite primers with regard to pressures, but I don't have large volumes of pressure data for them either.

    In any case, double check anything with the powder and/or wad manufacturers.
     
  8. Rick Barker

    Rick Barker Well-Known Member

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    mike T,

    The new Hodgdon "Basic Reloading Manual" includes Cheddite primers in their recipes for the Remington hull.

    Without typing the whole page, it would appear the Cheddites create more pressure than Win, Fed, Rem and CCI when using the same hull, wad, and powder loadings that are very close. I looked at Clays in particular, because it is such a popluar powder.

    You should either get a copy of this manual or see if it is on line at Hodgdon's site. I have not checked to see if they have updated their website to match this manual, but I would think they have.
     
  9. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    Rick Barker

    I would hesitate to classify the Cheddite Primers based on one powder and hull alone. They will have different properties with different loads. If you noticed, I advised caution with Clays powders in my previous post. What you observed in the data was only a part of what that caution was based on. I believe it has more to do with the powder than the primer. Clays seems to "stack up" rather abruptly and it also seems to react differently to some primers, than many other powders do. At least that could be a reasonable conclusion if the published data is to be given any credibility.
     
  10. Carol Lister

    Carol Lister TS Member

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    Quack Shot said"

    <blockquote>"Actually, Hodgdon says that the Nobel Sport can be safely substituted for the Winchester W209 in their data."</blockquote>

    Statements to that effect have been removed from the 2009 update of the Hodgdon online data manual. They now longer publish that recommendation.

    Carol Lister
     
  11. WNCRob

    WNCRob Member

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    Mike, According to Alliant, the Cheddite primer should be treated like a Rem 209...I don't believe it. Most published reloading data suggests that the Cheddite produces higher pressures than the Rem 209 or the Win 209...having said that, I very much like the Cheddite with Promo for 1 oz and 1 1/8th oz loads. I would NOT use it with Clays or Clay Dot for 1200 FPS 1 1/8th oz loads...1200 FPS with a Rem or Win primer is likely pushing 11,000 PSI, which is a little too much IMHO.

    WNCRob
     
  12. Carol Lister

    Carol Lister TS Member

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    From Rick Barker:<blockquote>"You should either get a copy of this manual or see if it is on line at Hodgdon's site. I have not checked to see if they have updated their website to match this manual, but I would think they have."</blockquote>

    You can find the 2009 Edition of the Hodgdon Data Manual here:

    <blockquote>http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Hodgdon%20Basic%20Manual.pdf</blockquote>

    If the direct link doesn't work, go to this page and click on the small image at the bottom:<blockquote>http://www.hodgdon.com/basic-manual-inquiry.html</blockquote>

    Carol Lister
     
  13. Mike-n-CA

    Mike-n-CA Member

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    Shotgun World.com has a reloading forum with a lot of helpful members. You might try for answers there.
    Mike
     
  14. Rick Barker

    Rick Barker Well-Known Member

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    Quack Shot, if you had read the original post, you would see the question was in regards to Clays or Claydot, using the Remington hull and a wad not provided for in Hodgdon's manual. You will note I referred him to the manual so he could make his own determination. Since the manual is printed by the manufactuer of the powder, that is the most reliable source sort of anyone's own private lab.
     
  15. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    Carol Lister

    I will make note that the primer substitution advice has been decontented from the latest 2009 Manual published by Hodgdon. I didn't agree with it 100% anyway, but never had documentation or support to refute it. Any clues concerning why they deleted the advice? It would be interesting to know if there was actually a concern, or if it was just an oversight. Thank you for your keen observation.

    Rick Barker

    I did read the original post. Somehow I forgot to miss the part about Green Dot and the questions regarding the 1 1/8 oz loads, plus the mention of American Select and Clay Dot. If you read my first post carefully, I addressed much of the original concerns. Since there was not enough information to go on with regard to the 1 oz loads, no recommendations were made, except for some advice on Clays and pressures. He was referred to the powder and wad manufacturers for further advice. Checking the available data for Alliant Powders, there is very little data for Cheddite Primers. Since he asked about Green Dot, American Select, and Clay Dot, that would be an appropriate source. The Hodgdon Manual could possibly cover his question on Clays. No way to tell without knowing the exact components he intends to use. When in doubt, call the manufacturer. If you are lucky, you might get some good advice. Since he mentioned Downrange products, Kevin Lewis would be a great resource for advice. He has a good amount of test data and some detailed observations on primers and wads. If you look at page 35 of the 2009 Hodgdon manual, it looks like most of the Downrange Wads are "provided for" and there are actually loads listed for them in the data. Downrange also has published some data for their wads, but it seems to mirror what the powder companies have provided.

    WNCRob

    I have a suspicion that the Cheddite primer is a similar "type" of primer when compared to the Remington. I would NOT say that they are equivalent or interchangeable. I've seen some very different results in my limited testing of them. I have made similar observations regarding the published data available for the Cheddites.
     
  16. Carol Lister

    Carol Lister TS Member

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    Quack Shot...

    I don't know why Hodgdon no longer prints the recommendation. I DO remember reading an independent source a year or two back that reported that Nobel Sport engineered their primers specially to duplicate the performance of WW 209s and that THAT was the reason Hodgdon recommended them. I never found corroboration of that either.

    Resources like the Hodgdon Data Manual are usually printed from the same master edition after edition so that changes, additions and deletions have to be intentional. I doubt that this deletion was accidental.

    Carol Lister
     
  17. Rick Barker

    Rick Barker Well-Known Member

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    Quack Shot, okay you win. I will no longer continue to offer any advice on any postings on this website. I was not aware that your opionon is the only one that matters. I think it is a waste of time to recite an entire loading manual to someone on this site, when they can access it on line theirselves. By referring them to published material I think would be more helpful in the long run.
     
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