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Primer Question

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by sammie, Nov 16, 2007.

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  1. sammie

    sammie TS Member

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    Where do Fiocchi primers fit into the primer picture? Are they exact replacements for any primer like Win or Rem? Thanks for your help. sam
     
  2. luvnbearhugs1

    luvnbearhugs1 TS Member

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    Oh Lord no, give us strength. lol
     
  3. oletymer

    oletymer Member

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    A little hotter than Rem and a little milder than Win.
     
  4. Capt. Morgan

    Capt. Morgan TS Member

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    Tom Armbrust wrote an excellent investigation into the effects of primer substitutions on shot patterns. The web address is above. The chart below is the first table in the article and lists 9 tested primers in the order of the shot velocities they produced. With 2 exceptions, the chamber pressures followed the velocities directly.
    <center>[​IMG]</img></center>
    Morgan
     
  5. DocJim

    DocJim Member

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    Does anyone know where the RIO primer fits in? Any data?,,,,,,,,,,,,,,JIm
     
  6. BDodd

    BDodd TS Member

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    Hodgdon regards the Noble Sport primer as "a safe substitution" for the Winchester 209. Even that seems to be a lot of wiggle words. It would be nice to see a new and recent list of primer brisance....Bob Dodd
     
  7. Capt. Morgan

    Capt. Morgan TS Member

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    The data I've been given by powder manufacturers seems to indicate that Rio primers fall between Winchesters and Federals. I'm going to have a couple of Winchester load formulas tested using Rio primers to see for myself what the effects of that substitution are.

    Morgan
     
  8. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    There is no direct substitution guide for primers, since there really is no way to tell how any given primer will perform in any given load. The only exception appears to be the Nobel Sport substitution for the Winchester 209, as per Hodgdon. The Fiocchi seems to work close to the Winchester 209 regarding pressures, with MANY exceptions. The Rio appears to be one of the hottest primers made. I consider it as hot as the Federal 209A or the CCI 209M. If you don't know what you are doing and don't have some reliable data to go on, I would recommend that you NOT substitute primers. It's great to save a few dollars, but that should not be at the expense of safety or at the risk of damaging an expensive shotgun. The cumulative effect of firing thousands of over pressure loads in a firearm can have a disastrous effect on one's nerves.

    When in doubt, you can send your loads out for pressure and velocity testing. There are several people that offer that as a service for a reasonable cost.
     
  9. waverider

    waverider Well-Known Member

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    According to Hodgdon, Nobel Sport 209 primer may be safely substituted for the Win 209.

    If you are using 700X, the same Green Duster wad in a AA hull, Bruster's table is published data.

    There are some Hodgdon Titewad loads where the Fiocchi 616 is hotter than the Fed 209A in some loads.

    Rem STS/Nitro hull; 1 1/8 oz shot; Rem Fig 8 wad;

    Fed 209A; 15.2 gr Titewad; 1090 f/s 9,600 psi

    Fiocchi 616; 15.0 gr Titewad; 1090 f/s 10,000 psi

    As you can see just because generally speaking one primer seems hotter than another you can never tell until the loads are tested.

    Since you gave no data relating to "I do not load even close to max pressures... " my feeling is if you are reloading at least 1 level below the fastest load published go ahead and substitute with the Fiocchi primer.

    Jason
     
  10. BDodd

    BDodd TS Member

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    Quack shot, the problem with the Hodgdon statement, and why I mentioned "wiggle words" is that several primers are "safely substituted" for the Winchesters because they MAY be considerably lower in brisance, cooler, or creating less pressure but there's no indication that they will "behave in all loads" like a Winchester. While there's no perfect listing of substituting primers, my point is that it would be nice, at least, to have a rating of brisance, hot to cool, with ALL the currently available primers for reloaders....Bob Dodd
     
  11. EDGARMCM

    EDGARMCM TS Member

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    Above is the website for RIO primer reloading data from RIO. RIO appears to be hotter that either Federal, Winchester, or Remington.


    Cut & Paste the address below for Noble Sport Loading Data:

    http://www.dkgtrading.com/nobelsport/graphics/loading.pdf
     
  12. esoxhunter

    esoxhunter Well-Known Member

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    I believe as long as you load well below the max; you can substitute most any primer. As I load all light loads; primers are not a concern to me; although I use Fiocchi exclusively since Remington and Winchester went "nuts" with their prices. I use the Remington 209 primer information when I can't find any info using the Fiocchi's. Ed
     
  13. maclellan1911

    maclellan1911 TS Member

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    Any info on the wolf primers yet?
     
  14. woodski

    woodski Member

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    Fio. Primers don't like colder weather (below 45 degrees) as they don't ignite as well for some reason. In warmer weather they work very well i have found and I have been using Rex 1 and 2 with them (7/8, 1oz and 1 1/8.) 10,000 rounds so far. start low and work your way up to an acceptable Velocity and Preasure.
     
  15. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    BDodd

    The problem with a "table" is simply that it would not apply consistently enough to be useful. There are variables like temperature and characteristics of different powders that would render such a list useless and possibly dangerous for the uninformed. I'm not saying that you can't substitute primers. I'm saying that you have no way to know exactly what the effects will be in any given load, unless you do the testing or have data to support it. I hold statements such as the ones made by Hodgdon regarding the Nobel Sport/Winchester interchangeability and Alliant's claim that Clays Data will work for Clay Dot powder in all circumstances, as absolutely suspect. They may be close, but there can be differences that can raise pressures over SAAMI limits. To be on the safe side, I would suggest that all primers be considered an unknown unless there is data for the exact combination of components being used. Even then, there would be enough variability to change pressures a surprising amount from the published data. Just the variation in crimp depth/strength and temperatures can send pressures way up or down.

    The best way around this could be for manufacturers such as Alliant to provide useful data for their powders/components for a more varied combination of components, especially primers. They provide data for many different wads, but it appears that primers can have as much, if not more effect on pressures. Why not provide some useful data to work with, instead of leaving it up to one's imagination or just pure luck!

    I just love it when they tell you to drop the powder charge a half grain and go for it. I don't think I'd trust that advice all that much. You need to ask what the pressure would be as a result of a substitution. I doubt they could do much more than guess. Maybe an educated guess, but a guess all the same.

    Tom Armbrust did a few pretty good articles, but the gist of it gets lost when someone uses the resulting data to swap around with components based on what was reported. It showed some interesting trends, but the data is reliable only for the exact set of components used and may not apply accross the board for all components. There were a few articles regarding primer substitutions in the last couple of Lyman Shotshell Guides. They warned against making any conclusions based on the data EXCEPT that substitution of primers can cause some rather large changes in pressure.
     
  16. BDodd

    BDodd TS Member

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    All understood, Quacker - we're really on the same page....Bob Dodd
     
  17. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    I am way out in left field on this topic. I will not substitute any primer. Remington hulls are designed to accept Remington primers. I will not stick a Winchester primer, or any other primer in a Remington hull.

    I know I can save fifteen cents per box by buying discount primers but I want my reloads to be equivalent to premium factory shells and I feel that I must use premium components to achieve this.

    I know many disagree with my feeling on this issue and thats OK. We can still be friends and disagree.

    Pat Ireland
     
  18. Capt. Morgan

    Capt. Morgan TS Member

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    <I>"I know I can save fifteen cents per box by buying discount primers but I want my reloads to be equivalent to premium factory shells and I feel that I must use premium components to achieve this.

    I know many disagree with my feeling on this issue and thats OK. We can still be friends and disagree."</I>

    There's certainly no arguing with your point of view, Pat. But other than cost, I've just never been able to tell any difference whether I load "pure breds" or "mix-n-match".

    Morgan
     
  19. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    I used to be with Pat in left field. Now I'm a step or two closer to the infield. While I was experimenting with almost every powder and wad under the sun, the one thing I did not vary was the primer. Fiocchi primers went in Fiocchi hulls, Rem in Rem, Win in Win and Fed in Fed.

    I've long since standardized on Remington STS hulls, so I use Remington components. It is never a mistake to use the same components the factory uses when producing their premium shells.

    However, I do use Windjammer wads (and clones) on occasion, and I found certain specific load/powder combinations benefit from a W209 primer substitution. W209 primers are stepped at the top to allow use in STS hulls without deforming the primer pocket. I don't segregate hulls by primer use and have had zero problems switching back and forth between STS209 and W209 primers.
     
  20. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Jason, the recipe you posted from Hodgdons site doesn't necessarily mean a hotter primer created the higher pressure reading alone.

    "Fed 209A; 15.2 gr Titewad; 1090 f/s 9,600 psi

    Fiocchi 616; 15.0 gr Titewad; 1090 f/s 10,000 psi"

    The forward thrust of the hotter Federal 209A has a bearing on the comparisons between these two loads. I asked Ben Armonette(sp) at Alliant about this once and that's the info. I gleaned from that question. Sometimes the slower primer will more pressure because it lacks the thrust a hotter primer has. Sounded logical to me. Hap
     
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