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Primer Question......

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by Hauxfan, Nov 8, 2007.

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  1. Hauxfan

    Hauxfan Well-Known Member

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    Does anyone use Rio 209 primers???

    I have used Remington primers since the beginning of time. (Or so it seems)

    But when I checked for prices ( I try to buy in bulk), Remington primers are $53.95 more per 5M. That is a chunk in my book.

    I tried to find reloading data for Claydot/Remington wad and Rio primers but I couldn't seem to find any.

    What would they be comparable to.

    One guy at the gun club shoots them and says he's never had a problem with them, so that is one endorsement for them.

    Any more?

    Thanks! Hauxfan!
     
  2. BDodd

    BDodd TS Member

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    Did we not read that Rios could be treated as a replacement for the Winchesters in recipes??....Bob Dodd
     
  3. djpk69

    djpk69 TS Member

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    I believe Fio 209's are the same as Win 209's also
     
  4. Capt. Morgan

    Capt. Morgan TS Member

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    In talking to both powder companies and wad manufacturers, Rio primers are a bit hotter than Winchesters. If you intend to use them as a replacement for Winchesters drop the powder charge by .3 or .4 grains at least. Some data that uses Winchester primers that I have just recently had tested (by SAMMI equipment and procedures) produced higher pressures and higher velocities than what was listed for it in Hodgdon's reloading guide...higher to the point of being a concern. Had Rio primers been used as direct replacements for the Winchesters in the tests, the resulting pressures would have been even more excessive than they turned out to be.

    Morgan
     
  5. oletymer

    oletymer Member

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    Rios are very close to Federals. I included the link for reloading data supplied by Rio. Compare the same load with Hogdons loads for Win. primers and the pressures are higher with Rios in most cases.
     
  6. BDodd

    BDodd TS Member

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    There you go, trust no ones "memory."....Bob Dodd
     
  7. ole46bob

    ole46bob TS Member

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    Been using RIO's with Clays and Titegroup. Went 7% less on powder and realy like them.
    If you could send link to RIO I sure would like it.
     
  8. maclellan1911

    maclellan1911 TS Member

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    Try this, Anyone come across any load data for wolf 209 primers?
     
  9. Capt. Morgan

    Capt. Morgan TS Member

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    Take a close look at the reloading data presented above for Rio primers. The 1 1/8 oz. load using 17.5 grn. of Clays and a Fig. 8 wad supposedly produces a load with a speed of 1185 fps. and a pressure of 11580 PSI. The thing that concerns me about the data is that the Rio people are publishing a formula that produces a pressure 80 psi OVER the maximum test pressure for 12 ga. ammunition as established by SAAMI. There are any number a variables that could send the pressure well beyond what it is now.

    Morgan
     
  10. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    Rio primers appear to be as hot as any other of the "hot" primers like the CCI 209M or the Federal 209A. They are also slightly larger in diameter than the standard US 209 primers. They could potentially enlarge the primer pocket enough that a standard primer could fall out if one were to be loaded in that hull after using the Rio. The data that Rio provided is a bit enlightening regarding how "hot" they are. I don't think I'd just swap Rio primers without regard for pressures. I certainly don't think I'd be swapping primers AND powder in the data together unless I had a little more to go on. I know Alliant says to use Clays data with Clay Dot, but I don't trust that. Not without seeing some data to back it up. They have not published any pressure information in their loading data for Clay Dot, so as far as I'm concerned, it's an unknown. Same idea for Promo. There they tell you to use Red Dot Data for Promo. It might be close, but I don't think it's close enough to trust it quite that much. There is enough variation between different lots of the SAME powder without having to worry if DIFFERENT powders don't vary somehow, especially from different manufacturers.

    They have done pretty well in some cold temperature testing I did with certain powders. They have also performed dismally as well, in other loads. If cost is the only factor and you can select a load that would ensure reasonable pressures and decent performance, then why not use them. I've used many thousands and never had one fail to fire. Just don't load thousands of rounds until you try them out, especially if you are going to use them in colder weather.

    I'd be looking at the data for the hottest primers and start from there. If the Rio data works for your components, then that's a plus. I'd stay away from that 11580 PSI load myself. Just some variation in the crimp can put you WAY over the top. If it's much over 10,000 with the EXACT components I'm using, I'll use something else. If I'm making a substitution, I'll go for something considerably lower. There are only about 34 loads listed using a handfull of wads and powders with only three hulls in total for the Rio data. There's not much to go on, but you can get a good idea by comparing that data with other sources using other primers with similar components.

    $53.95 difference per 5000 is a pretty good incentive to use the Rio primers. That's almost a bag of shot in some places these days. :) I just believe that sometimes you get what you pay for. I have had no problems with the Rio primers except the fact that they are not the standard US size 209 and have very little loading data available. If you can deal with that safely, have at it.
     
  11. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Capt. Morgan- You stated that advice given to you by both powder manufacturers and wad manufacturers indicated that you should use something like a 1/2 grain less powder with Rio primers.

    I will let you in an an industry secret. If an industry "expert" has no idea about the correct answer to a primer question, he will answer the question by stating "cut back the powder by 1/2 grain". Safety is their first concern. Cutting back the powder 1/2 grain is often industrial code for "I don't know but that would be safe".

    A friend of mine who posts on this site last week sent me a full box of Herters primers and Alcan primers. These are around 50 years old. If I were to ask my friends at Alliant how to load these primers, I know they would advise, "cut back the powder by 1/2 grain".

    Pat Ireland
     
  12. Capt. Morgan

    Capt. Morgan TS Member

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    <I>"I will let you in an an industry secret. If an industry "expert" has no idea about the correct answer to a primer question, he will answer the question by stating "cut back the powder by 1/2 grain". Safety is their first concern. Cutting back the powder 1/2 grain is often industrial code for "I don't know but that would be safe".</I>

    That's not a secret, Pat. That's why I've started sending samples to all my current Rio-based loads to a well-known company for ballistics testing using SAAMI-approved equipment and methods. I'm using data developed for Winchester primers and Clays powder but substituting Rio primers, Clay Dot powder and a reduced powder load. When the results are in, I can talk with the testers and make adjustments on the formula from there. That's the only way I'll know what I'm actually doing.

    Morgan
     
  13. Bob Hawkes

    Bob Hawkes Well-Known Member

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    Like Hauxfan, I've been using Remington's forever. I am down to my last 10,000 so I'd better pay attention to some of the information on this thread. Pat brings back memories with his Herter and Alcan primers. We would order enough Herter wads so that the primers rode along in the same bundle for free. What Haz-mat fee? Thank you for the gun laws of 68, it put Herters right out of business.What a catalog. "Absolutely, the World's Best" no matter what the item may have been. Although I loved their duck calls. Fun times! Bob H.
     
  14. Hauxfan

    Hauxfan Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for all the info, guys.

    Now I'm worried a little bit about the pressure issue that has been brought up.

    I use STS hulls, and a Remington Figure 8 wad with 18,4 grains of Claydot.

    As for the issue of Clay's versus Claydot, I am on my 4th 8 lb keg of Claydot and the reason being, is that it is so close to Clays I can't believe it.

    I use a universal charge bar in my Mec9000 and when switching back and forth between Clay's & Claydot, I never have to move it as it meters the same for the both of them. Claydot is cheaper for me to shoot than Clays by $20.00 per 8 lb keg.

    I think I will try 5M of the Rio's and if I don't like them, I'll go back to my Remington's. But it may be a while, as I still have a little over 5M Remington's left. And it being just about winter here in the heartland, I very much doubt I'll be shooting a new primer until next June or so.

    I want to thank you all for the information that helped me make up my mind.

    If I do decide to go with the next higher priced primer, that would be Fiocchi's at $102.00 per 5M. Some people like'em and some don't. Hauxfan!
     
  15. FarmerD

    FarmerD TS Member

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    RIO primers are my primer of chose for straight walled hulls, next to F209A. They are larger dia. but that doesn't cause any grief if you load once and dump. I find, because they are somewhat hotter (a little less hot than F209A) that they preform better with the slower burning powders. BEN
     
  16. Capt. Morgan

    Capt. Morgan TS Member

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    <I>"Now I'm worried a little bit about the pressure issue that has been brought up.

    I use STS hulls, and a Remington Figure 8 wad with 18,4 grains of Claydot."</I>

    Hauxfan,

    That is very close to load I just had professionally tested for velocity and pressure except I used once fired Gun Club hulls and a Winchester primer. The Winchester primer develops more pressure behind 18.4 grn. of ClayDot than does the Remington primer and the Rio primer develops more pressure than both of them (click here for Winchester/Rio comparison).

    If you're interested and send an email address to the above alias, I'll send you the 8 page PDF file I received from the testers on the pressure and velocity numbers for that load (minus 0.1 grains of powder). The data I received from the tests was significantly different from the data Hodgdon published for the load using Clays.

    Morgan
     
  17. shot410ga

    shot410ga Well-Known Member

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    I've seen Noble Sport for under $100/5000 and Cheddites for $104/5000. at the same distributor WW209 @ $154.95, Fed209 @ $169.95/5000, Rem209 @ $159.95/5000. That's $50-70 differance. There is starting to a real need to change even though I don't want to use anything except American componets.
     
  18. maclellan1911

    maclellan1911 TS Member

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    How about Wolf 209 primers, they are in the same price range as rio. I havenot found Data for these yet. I have shot tons of wolf ammo 7.62x39 .45acp not one problem. Just not any load data on them????
     
  19. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    Pat Ireland

    You mean they really don't know? What an epiphany! I should have been able to guess that, since they always seem to give the same answers to these questions.:) When I'm advised to lower a powder charge by 1/2 a grain or to use the data for another powder, I KNOW that they are just giving me a quick send off. I've stopped asking because I already know the answer. I'll pay to have some testing done if I really need to know. I'm with the Capt on that!
     
  20. Hauxfan

    Hauxfan Well-Known Member

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    Capt. Morgan, email sent. Hauxfan!
     
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