1. Attention: We have put together a thread with tips and a tutorial video to help with using the new software. Please take a moment to check out the thread here: Trapshooters.com Tutorial & Help Video.
    Dismiss Notice

Primer - If it fits, does it really matter?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by t7731, Jul 18, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. t7731

    t7731 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2012
    Messages:
    252
    Location:
    Westminster, MD
    Brand new to reloading - Picked up some reclained shot today from a neighboring club. While I was there, I got to talking to a couple of fellows that have been reloading for years. I told them that I have been collecting hulls - AA's, STS, and Nitro's and asked them what other components I should use.

    Below is what they use in any/all of those hulls above:

    Powder - Alliant Clay Dot
    Wad - Claybuster WAA12
    Primer - Fiocchi 616 (.209 Type)

    They bought this stuff at the club and they had some of it in stock at pretty good prices, so I bought enough to load 1000 shells.

    I came home and pulled up the reloaders guide on the Alliant website. To my dismay, there is not a recipe on their site that uses these three components. The closest recipe on their site uses Rem 209P Primers. I also found another recipe on another site that uses the same wads/primers, but a different powder.

    My question is this. Would substituting the Rem 209 with the Fiocchi 616 (.209 Type) cause any saftey or quality concerns?

    Thanks for your feedback.
     
  2. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,209
    Location:
    Scottsdale, AZ
    It matters...............but not much.
     
  3. omgb

    omgb Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,762
    Location:
    Santa Clarita, CA
    It does matter, more so on some load combos than others. At the upper end of some loads, swapping a primer can push you into dangerous pressure levels. In my experience, it is safest to use only published and tessted loads, exactly as they are listed.
     
  4. Jason Hassler

    Jason Hassler Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    302
    Try sending an email or calling Ben at Alliant and ask him about substituting. I've used one primer for another but as the previous poster said, not wise to be swapping components around if you are loading something that is high pressure to begin with. The best thing to do is stick with published data.
     
  5. School Teacher

    School Teacher Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    2,054
    Location:
    Louisville, KY
    Many of us buy primers in lots of 5000 or multiples of 5000. I tend to use one load and keep sufficient components to make 10,000 reloads or more. In this way, I have avoided component shortages and saved a few bucks by buying when certain components on sale.

    As Jason recommended, e-mail Ben at Alliant and he will provide a good load.

    As OMGB also observes, if you stay away from the high end of the load spectrum, you should be OK.

    I load for 1145 fps and pressure between 8000 and 10,000 psi.

    A few years ago when primers just about disappeared, I tarted using Nobel Sport 209's. The common wisdom was that these were similar to a Winchester 209. I bought 20,000 and try to keep at least 10,000 on hand.

    My understanding of the Fiocchi 616 is that it is one of hotter primers and is similar to a Federal 209.

    Once I reload a hull, I stay with the same primer in that hull as every brand of primers has a slightly different dimension.

    Be sure to use a scale to check your powder drop. Many bushings drop less than than their listed charge. Some bushings may have been altered or mislabeled. Some lots of powder, especially Alliant Promo, vary in density.

    Weigh your initial charges to be safe.

    Ed Ward
     
  6. John Galt

    John Galt TS Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2011
    Messages:
    2,788
    If it fits you must acquit.
     
  7. RobertT

    RobertT Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2006
    Messages:
    1,356
    You are too new to reloading to be drifting away from published recipes. Hull type "straight vs tapered" and compatability with wads, primers, powder and shot weights along with setting proper crimp depths all factor into making a quality reload. Attached is an article that may help.

    Having stated the above, many of us do stray from available data but with an experienced eye. (if we didn't shoot it out:)

    Robert
     
  8. t7731

    t7731 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2012
    Messages:
    252
    Location:
    Westminster, MD
    Thanks guys. Not what I really wanted to hear, but I am glad I asked. I will make some calls to Alliant tommorrow. Looks like I just wasted $26 on primers. Thanks again.
     
  9. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2009
    Messages:
    17,232
    Location:
    IL(The gun friendly Southern Part)
    No that doesn't mean you wasted money on those primers. What it means, is you need to tell Ben at Alliant exactly what components you are wanting to use and he will tell you what load/loads are safe with said components. I did the same thing recently with another component swap. Never just assume one little swap will be ok. We all know what happens when we assume.
     
  10. Jason Hassler

    Jason Hassler Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    302
    Ben is also a very good guy and helpful. He went out of his way to help me.
     
  11. t7731

    t7731 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2012
    Messages:
    252
    Location:
    Westminster, MD
    What type of scale does one typically use to confirm that his bushings are dropping the appropriate amount of powder?
     
  12. Unknown1

    Unknown1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2009
    Messages:
    3,408
    There's a good article on primer swapping in Issue 9 of Trapshooting USA (page 60) that quotes the comparison testing Dick Quesenberry for Alliant Powder does every year: http://mag.digitalpc.co.uk/fvx/bbp/tsusa/1009-10/

    If this link doesn't work for you use this one: http://www.trapshootingusa.com/html/home.asp, click on the light blue box in the lower left, scroll down and click on issue 9. When it comes up enter "60" in the page window at the top to go directly to the article.

    Keller
     
  13. Unknown1

    Unknown1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2009
    Messages:
    3,408
    <blockquote>"What type of scale does one typically use..."</blockquote>I use a RCBS 5-0-2 and 5-0-5 beam balance. I find them more reliable and repeatable than a digital scale...especially the digitals that cost less than my beam balance! The average reloader's digital does not do well at reporting small additions to the pan (dribbled powder) because the load cells are simply not sensitive enough. A beam will record the addition of even a few flakes of powder.

    Keller
     
  14. Rubicon_Joey

    Rubicon_Joey Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2012
    Messages:
    585
    If you bought the components from a club they may be willing to do a swap. Most clubs I've been to would understand and would probably help you pick out a good load and right components.
     
  15. 1oldtimer

    1oldtimer TS Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2010
    Messages:
    2,003
    I have swapped fio.616 primers for winchesters for years with no issues. I keep my powder on the light side. A good scale is a must!
    Clyde
     
  16. Border Bandit

    Border Bandit Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2008
    Messages:
    1,715
    Location:
    Fairfield PA
    You mentioned Rem 209's, and you might as well forget them unless you've already got some. So far as hotness, pressure, or whatever, they are at the bottom of the scale; not that that's a bad thing, but a moot point nonetheless, since they soon will be history to the hand loader. The supply is drying up, and the price has gone through the roof: I saw a flat of 5,000 and the seller wanted $250. Never mind they don't work worth a damn with certain powders in cold weather. ...Green Dot and worse yet, American Select, for instance.

    best...mike
     
    Ed C thanked this.
  17. t7731

    t7731 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2012
    Messages:
    252
    Location:
    Westminster, MD
    After reading all of these comments about a scale, it brings up another question. I have seen all of the Powder bushing charts for the different types of powder and different bushing manufacturers.

    How likely is it that you will be able to find a bushing that gets you to the exact 1/10 of a grain? It seems that the variance with most of these bushings is at least 5/10. In other words, what happens if your load calls for 18.0 grains, but when you weigh the powder from one bushing it is 17.8 and the next bushing is 18.3?
     
  18. Unknown1

    Unknown1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2009
    Messages:
    3,408
    The bushings are a starting point but a powder will vary in density (and consequently in weight) from one batch to another. You may find a bushing that gives you and exact drop with this weeks batch of powder (extreme good luck) and it may be off by 3/10s with next weeks batch. There's no crisis if you're a couple of tenths off either way. I fine tune if this week's bushing is 5/10s off or more.

    Keller
     
  19. Border Bandit

    Border Bandit Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2008
    Messages:
    1,715
    Location:
    Fairfield PA
    Depends upon the loader you're using. With a P/W I use P/W or Pacific bushings and use my Dremel tool to grind the interior to get the load volume I want. Of course it will vary from powder to powder. I've found that grinding "scallops" in the bottom of the bushing works best for me. Don't forget to check your shot drops, while you're at it.

    best....mike
     
  20. wayneo

    wayneo Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,002
    A half of a grain of powder doesn't make much difference with shot-shells unless you are loading the upper limits to begin with. The way your machine is mounted, and if it is a progressive or single stage, could make a half grain difference. You also need to check each container of powder you open, they will all be a little different in weight.

    You could get an adjustable charge bar and be done with bushings.

    Looks like the 616s are middle of the road with pressures. Read the above link, and call Alliant.

    Wayne
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.