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Primer detonation ????

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by Jim101, Sep 29, 2007.

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  1. Jim101

    Jim101 Active Member

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    We had a little discussion a while back about primers detonating in the loading press. Well I had one that somehow got sideways and crushed in my 9000H, It didn't fire. I decided to do Pat's crush one in a vise experiment, It didn't fire.

    Question, What really makes a primer work?

    The one on the left was smashed in the loader. The one on the right was mashed in a vise. The center one is new.

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>



    Jim
     
  2. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    The coating inside the outer surface (hit by pin) has to make contact with the anvil which creates a spark setting off the primer mixture inside the cup. Sort of like striking a wood match on a rough surface. Crushing it may or may not (strike the match). A piece of hard shot in the priming station will at times set it off though if in the right position. Hap
     
  3. g7777777

    g7777777 TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    it might have to do with velocity

    I had a habit of loading shells in a 5 gallon bucket and then one day I poured one bucket into another bucket

    a shell went off and stuff went flyig everywhere-- it was pretty exciting in the old garage for a couple of moments

    I looked and found one shell that had a crease across the primer- apparently a rim had hit it perfectly square

    that will make a primer and shell go off

    drop height was probably 2-4 feet-

    Gene
     
  4. JB Logan Co. Ohio

    JB Logan Co. Ohio TS Member

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    Gene, I have thought about what happened to you many times (hoping it won't happen to me). What exactly happened when the shell went off. Being in a bucket and no pressure build up (except within the shell itself) how widespread was the detonation and resulting shot spread? Did it puncture the bucket? Did it set any other shells off?

    JB=Jerry Beach 8503917

    PS- How was the pattern? (really LOL!) Glad you were not injured.
     
  5. BDodd

    BDodd TS Member

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    I've had the occasion to crush a lead pellet in the primer seating die in both the MEC Grabber 76 and the 9000H. So far, I've never had a shell or a primer fire while loading, boxing, dropping from the work bench but I can guarantee I miss a heart beat or two whenever any incident like these occur.....breakemall...Bob Dodd
     
  6. Jim101

    Jim101 Active Member

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    I knew the old piece of shot in the primer station would come up. I attached a piece of #8 remington mag shot to the primer, Nothing happened.


    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>
     
  7. BDodd

    BDodd TS Member

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    I'm convinced it takes a striking blow of some sort and crushing will rarely cause a primer to go....Bob Dodd
     
  8. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    It takes a shock, not a crush, as Bob says. See link above.

    Neil
     
  9. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Jim, I used to do all my loading in my garage on my work bench. One of my older sons friends found a loose primer laying around, placed it in a drilled hole on my work bench which had many holes. The idiot put a piece of loose shot on it and hit it with a hammer! Luck was with me, I only had to pay for his stitches for the cut on his lip! Believe me, they will go off! Now all my loading is done in my loading room, entry is open to special invite only these days. Hap
     
  10. g7777777

    g7777777 TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    In my case when the shell went off in the bucket there was some "containment", by the other shells- no other shell went off but they did go flying and shot went flying also

    no injuries- I was wearing glasses

    Gene
     
  11. Jim101

    Jim101 Active Member

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    Neil, I agree with you and Sir Dodd. I was just kind of bored today and thought it would be fun to dredge this up again with some photos.



    Jim
     
  12. ExFedex

    ExFedex Active Member

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    Years ago this discussion came up at our club and one of the more senior club members made the point about a primer crushed in a vise will not go off. Our resident Exalted Racoon of Crankyness who is long gone now told the guy to hit the vise jaws with a hammer then and see what happens. Such events might get more exciting in the future with steel shot reloading.
     
  13. willing

    willing Member

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    I loaded for over 10 years on a Grabber, spilled a few pellets and never had a primer go off. I've had a 9000GN for a little over a year and have had primers go off 2 times. a little noise, nothing drastic. Both times there was a pellet under the primer. If the primer is centered I think it will go off and without a sharp blow.

    Bill
     
  14. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Jim- You and I got similar results, but you took nice pictures. Thanks

    Pat Ireland
     
  15. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    I would like to know if the primer compound is ignited by the heat from friction of the brass primer cup rubbing against the anvil or is it truly a shock sensitive explosive compound. I was under the impression that heat was required for ignition of all explosive, but I have been under false impressions before.

    Pat Ireland
     
  16. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    It's shock, Pat, and that's why I first posted to counter the "burning" argument (burning is slow) and substitute "detonation" which is so fast you can't believe it.

    Neil
     
  17. Jim101

    Jim101 Active Member

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    Pat, I believe it's more a function of shock, as I see it friction as the initiator would be very inconsistant/unreliable.






    Jim
     
  18. Jim101

    Jim101 Active Member

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    Bill if you think primer detonation is fast, Take a look at primercord ,AKA mother-in-law's clothes line. How about 8000 meters per second.





    Jim
     
  19. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    OK- if it is shock, then what is the chemical reaction and how is pressure energy able to initiate the reaction? I remember some extracurricular fun in chem lab when we mixed ammonia and iodine crystals to make triiodonitrate. A feather or light breeze would cause this stuff to explode. It seemed like the detonation was caused by pressure but it was actually heat caused by friction. Air blowing over this stuff created enough friction heat to detonate this fun compound. It is most efficiently made when the teacher is not in the lab.

    Pat Ireland
     
  20. argus tuft

    argus tuft Member

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    Hi Guys, it is definitely caused by shock and it happens mainly in MEC when using imported european primers. These primers are slightly larger than win 209 and will sometimes hang up untill the press is at full stroke compressing the primer turrett spring to maximum and then releasing at the last minute with quite a crack, all you need is a piece of shot under the primer when this happens and you have everything in place to get a detonation. how do I know this, I have had three seperate occasions where it happened, all with Noble Sport primers.

    All the presses we use are made in America and fundamentally designed for Winchester components, I do not know of this happening with Win components as they require little resistance to seat the primer and even if a piece of shot was in the reprime cup there would be no impact

    Argus
     
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