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Power weight vs humidity ?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Ljutic111, Aug 15, 2012.

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  1. Ljutic111

    Ljutic111 TS Member

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    Powder weight vs humidity ?

    For the last 20+ years I have used 700X and find it to be very consistant. The last 4 years I have been loading strictly 1 oz loads with a 406 bushing in a 366 Pacific loader. Never had a bad load in all these years. This year I started running a dehumidifier in the basement and adjoining reloading room and noticed the powder weight in my hulls getting lighter and down to 14.8 in some loads where usually they would be 15.3-15.6 ? I remove about a gallon of water a day. I notice no difference in my shooting or report noise and I am breaking targets as before or maybe better missing one once in a while due to my mistakes. I am not about to change bushings. Should there be that much difference in the weight by using a dehumidifier. I am very happy with my reloads but just wanted to know if this is normal. If I could go lower would be a good thing also but I think where I am is just fine.
     
  2. Ross

    Ross Well-Known Member

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    I'm also a 700X user it's very possible that your current container of powder just varies a little, how often did you check your drop weights with the other containers????? I've usually had a small variation from one lot number to another. PROMO from Alliant tells you to verify the weight with every different lot number, I have been using some Promo lately & it does vary sometimes a couple of bushing sizes.Just my experience. Ross Puls
     
  3. open choke

    open choke TS Member

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    I heard 700x doesn't vary from temperature chances cause of the nitro glyercin content in it
     
  4. wayneo

    wayneo Active Member

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    What Ross said. Its the moisture content in the powder that varies lot to lot. Water vapor (humidity) is actually lighter than air, and taking it out of the air shouldn't affect the powder weight. Many reloaders in the winter, when humidity is low, use a humidifier to add moisture to the air to keep static down. The ones I know don't have any issues with powder weight drops.

    Wayne
     
  5. Ljutic111

    Ljutic111 TS Member

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    Powder weight vs humidity ?

    Wayne , I was always under the asumption that humidity had weight ?? Not lighter than air . With the umpteen numbers of 8# containers of 700X I have used in the past have never varied in weight and I do weigh my hulls . Promo has a long history of variations from container to container and that is why I refuse to buy any of it since the 700X has served me right for so long a period . There was no difference in this container when I got it 2 months ago but now in weighing the hulls I found a lower weight since I started using the dehumidifier . I do mark the bushing and weight on all my boxes and this is what I noticed this past few weeks . Just curious is all and as I said , I won`t be changing bushings unless my shells sound bad which they don`t . 14.8-15 gr is quite a savings in the long run for a 1oz load .
     
  6. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    If it was heavier than air, it would be raining, not floating.
     
  7. 9point3

    9point3 Well-Known Member

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    Wet powder is heavier than dry powder but humid air is lighter than dry air.
     
  8. Stl Flyn

    Stl Flyn Well-Known Member

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    If that is true, could it be because humid air retains heat, better than dry air? Could it be a density of air difference? If humidity is condensed down out of vapor form, would water not cause the article of absorption to gain weight, seeing as water weighs more than air, when separated? Neil, where are you?

    But then, here is another question. Why does fog develop in low lying areas? Also, why does it then rise from that area, once the sun rises?

    Answer: Air reaches its highest level of saturation when the Dew Point reaches the actual Temperature. This usually occurs where the coldest air has settled first. Then as the air Temperature rises because of radiant heat being conducted to the ground, below the fog, the fog lifts, and becomes clouds, or disperses into the atmosphere, but the Temperature of the fog remains colder than the air below. Which would bring us to the density of air equation below.
     
  9. wayneo

    wayneo Active Member

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    ljutic,

    Air molecules are roughly 80% nitrogen (N2) and 20% oxygen (o2). A nitrogen molecule has an atomic mass of 28, an oxygen molecule is 32. Water vapor molecules (h20) has an atomic mass of 18. Dry air is much heavier than humid air. Don't confuse water vapor, a gas, with water, a liquid. Water is very dense and heavy.

    I really doubt the de-humidifier is taking moisture out of the powder. Are you getting some static, or powder bridging because the air is much drier? I used 700X for 10 years with both a humidifier and de-humidifier, and found no change in weights. Wish I could be more help.

    Wayne
     
  10. wayneo

    wayneo Active Member

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    Another thing to consider....Is the moisture in smokeless powder water? I don't think so. Maybe acids, either, alcohol? Nitrocellulose and nitroglycerin are not water soluble. In fact during production, water is used to wash off the acids, and alcohol is used to remover the water. Don't powder companies store smokeless powder under water to keep it stable?

    Stl Flyn........Here is something to think about.....

    If water vapor is invisible, which it is, why can you see steam? Which is super-heated water vapor. Answer will follow/

    Wayne
     
  11. Stl Flyn

    Stl Flyn Well-Known Member

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    Do the water particles absorb into the base of which the chemicals are applied, rather than the chemicals itself?

    I am going to take a wild stab at this. I am thinking it has to do with the separation of Hydrogen and Oxygen. Heated air also is able to hold more humidity. Seeing as water vapor is a gas, consisting of more than likely Hydrogen, and invisible. I say that steam is created by the heated water vapor (gas), rapidly cooling down and mixing with the colder air mass (Oxygen) to which it is escaping, thus condensing the vapor into small water particulate (H2O), which in fact creates a fog on the same basis as Dew Point and Temperature match. When the water particulate transforms back into room temperature, it transforms (Evaporates, or separates the Hydrogen from the Oxygen molecules) back into gas. Which is invisible. It is water vapor (gas) of the same temperature of the water creating it, until it is out a ways from the source to which the gas transforms into steam, making it visible. Thus my theory of rapid temperature change (Condensation) and the mixing of the two gases, being the source for transformation. Temperature is the difference between water and vapor.

    Why does condensation occur on the outside of a ice water filled glass, in a hot, humid air room? Why does dry ice (Solid CO2) steam, when brought out into hot humid air? I am thinking these results are of the same theory. Even though the above might not be correct.
     
  12. skeeljc

    skeeljc Supporting Vendor Supporting Vendor

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    The first place I would look is your measurement technique.

    It is not that easy to get good accurate and consistent powder drop measurements.

    1. You need to capture the powder drop during actual loading. Machine vibration settles the powder in the bushing. Machine vibration is different for a full functioning loader to an empty loader.

    2. You should be weighing the powder charge in the hull or a capture container. Transferring the powder charge from one container to another risks leaving some powder behind or loosing some of the charge. A digital scale makes this easier to do. Use the tare function to remove the container weight. Re-zero the tare before every measurement.

    Powder drops on a progressive loader should be within +/- 0.1 grain.

    Jim Skeel<BR>
    P/W Dealer/Distributor
     
  13. Ljutic111

    Ljutic111 TS Member

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    I don`t have clumping in my powder or is it moist . Never had . My shells are just fine just noticed that I`m dropping about .5 grains less lately . In the 20+ years of using 700X , I have had a constant drop in all my hulls and yes I do weight them properly . The answers that are given just don`t make sence to me ? I`m not a meterologist but a lowly retired sheetmetal worker who knows enough about air conditioning and when you run an ac unit or dehumidifier , you convert the moisture in the air to a solid mass which is water and weighing out at about 8# per gallon , This moisture had to come from someplace which I`m guessing my basement air and furniture, walls, ceiling, powder, etc . I`m also guessing that some of it is drying out the powder which may be giving me the lower weight . I`m still dropping the same volume from the same bushing for the last 4-5 years !! I originally stated I`m taking out about a gallon a day but upon further checking it is more like 2 gallons a day . I also have a small drier package taped to the powder cap on my 366 loader but it probably has run out of shelf life .
     
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