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POWDER

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by 686, Jun 13, 2007.

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  1. 686

    686 TS Member

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    greed dot or american select ? 12 ga. 7/8--1--1 1/8 loads. looking foe clean and soft loads. ans able to load all e 3 loads. up to handicape. thanks charles
     
  2. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    flip a coin. American Select is much cleaner, and a touch faster. It likes STS209 primers. Green Dot works with anything, but is dirtier. I use both and still can't decide which one I like better.
     
  3. Old Doc

    Old Doc Member

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    So who cares about dirty, one cleaning patch and its gone or the next shot its gone to be replaced by the next shot. Besides, there is soap and water for your hands. D Winter
     
  4. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    Green Dot is just a tad too slow for 7/8 oz, for my liking. It's just fine for 1 oz and the 1 1/8 oz loads. American Select is not all that much better for the 7/8oz either. They will probably work OK, but there are some better choices out there. The low pressures developed with a 7/8 oz payload don't really equate to a "Clean" load and might not be that consistent either, especially in colder weather. I use different powders for each shot weight, using something that is more appropriate for the task at hand.
     
  5. 686

    686 TS Member

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    ok i am oit of powder now. i can go maybe 6mo with out loading. i would consider different powders for different loads. 7/8--1-- and 1 1/8 12 ga. most sts hulls . how what powders would you spend my money on for each? i also load a little 20 ga. i would be buying 8 lb of each. i do not shoot enugh that $20.00 a 8 lb difference would be a big factor. just looking for a clean soft shooting and consindent powder. i am making my own shot so i can pay more for a better powder if needed . i am in fl. and cold is not normaly a problum. thanks chatles.
     
  6. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    Clays, Clay Dot, Red Dot, 700-X, Promo, WST, or any other reasonably fast powder would do for your 12 ga loads with all three shot weights. Check the loading data and see which suits your needs and keeps reasonable pressures for all three loadings. You might be limited a bit, if you want to go much over 1200fps with the 1 1/8 oz, but you said "soft", so I would expect that to mean 1200 or less. For the 20 ga, I'd just buy a 1 lb can of whatever powder suits the load you want, and not worry if it would work in 12ga.
     
  7. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    686, now that you are considering more than the two powders you mentioned initially, I think Quack Shot's advice is good. I've used a lot of different powders over the years and continue to try new ones. I also retry old ones because I like to tinker, and because every time I get a new gun or barrel I just have to see if it has any preferences. Along the way I've learned a lot about differences in powders and relegated most of the hyperbole to Marketing Speak.

    Since you don't reload much and don't want to try three of everything, I'll pass on what I've found and hope it helps.

    First, some thoughts on other aspects of shooting. I seem to be velocity sensitive. When I get used to shooting one velocity, changing to another even 25fps different cause me problems until I readjust. I don't really understand why, I just know it happens so I try to keep all my loads the same velocity, nominally 1150fps.

    With that in mind, 7/8oz loads at 1150fps are a problem. Even going closer to 1200fps, it is really hard to find a consistent load. After a whole lot of trying, I found only one. That is STS hull and primer, Federal 12S0 wad with 16gr Red Dot and 7/8oz magnum shot. The only problem with this load is the wad is expensive and heavy. Heavy means more actual and felt recoil. Expensive means you can load 1oz shells with normally priced wads for about the same. Since you are making your own shot, there is no reason to use 7/8oz loads other than you feel like shooting them.

    My current standard loads are as follows:

    STS hull, STS209 or W209 primer, 17gr Red Dot, TGT-12 wad, 1oz shot

    STS hull, STS209 or W209 primer, 17.7gr Red Dot, Spolar Gold or Windjammer wad, 1 1/8oz shot

    STS hull, W209 primer, 19gr Green Dot, Fig-8 wad, 1 1/8oz shot

    I use the Green Dot load for handicap and the Red Dot loads for singles and doubles. They are very consistent and have worked well in my Superposed, Beretta and Perazzi barrels.

    If you decide to experiment on your own, here is my take on powders. I don't use Promo because it is not consistent in performance, volume or composition from lot to lot. That's why it is so cheap. Since you don't care, skip it.

    Clays, Clay Dot, e3, 700X: I don't like 700X because it is very dense, which causes some fit problems, it's dirty, and produces sharp recoil. Clays and Clay Dot are virtually identical. I say virtually, because there is bound to be some difference, but I'll be darned if I can tell the difference in performance. The debis from Clays is light gray and hard to see. From Clay Dot it is black and easier to see. There is zero difference in "cleanliness", other than color of the debris between the two. With Clays at $98/8lb and Clay Dot at $82/8lb, Clay Dot wins. e3 is the cleanest burning fast powder I have ever used. STS hull, STS209 primer, 16gr e3, TGT-12 wad and 1oz shot is the single best 1oz load I have ever shot. It has a lot of nitroglycerin in it and will pit polycarbonate powder hoppers if you leave the powder in them between sessions.

    Of this fast powder group for 1oz loads, I think e3 is the cat's meow if you can put up with the polycarbonate problem. It is very consistent, even in winter. Clay Dot would be my second choice.

    Red Dot is a unique powder. It is a little slower (slightly) than those mentioned above. It is dirtier than all except 700X. Felt recoil is a little less. I like it because it is the most linear, forgiving powder I've found. If I could only use one powder for 7/8 through 1 1/8 ounce loads at under 1200fps, Red Dot would be my first choice. The "dirt" in Red Dot is mostly graphite and unburned powder flakes. An unburned flake or two doesn't bother me, but unlike old doc, I don't like dirty hands from handling hulls. I wish it was cleaner. However, its other virtues outweigh the cleanliness issue. I'll continue to use it, as I have since 1971.

    American Select and Solo 1000 are equivalent powders. If you get a good batch of Solo 1000, there is nothing better. It is too inconsistent for my tastes, so I won't use it. Since Hodgdon bought it and raised the price to $98/8lb there is zero reason to even consider it. Am Select is a mildly quirky powder, but is very clean and softer shooting than any mentioned above. If I could only use one powder for 1 and 1 1/8 ounce (no 7/8oz) loads, Am Select would be it. I usually try to keep pressures above 8000-85000psi to get a consistent burn, but an STS hull, STS209 primer, 17gr Am Select, TGT-12 wad and 1oz shot for 1150fps @ 6925psi works extremely well. So do the 1 1/8oz load recipes, but I always seem to get more velocity that the loading manual says, even after adjusting for a light operated chrono. Am Select likes soft primers. The STS209 is perfect. Going to a W209 or any hotter primer raises pressures dramatically. I like it enough that I ordered yet another 8lb jug. Now that STS209 primers are again plentiful, it may well replace Green Dot for my handicap loads.

    Green Dot is dirty, quirky at very low or high velocities, doesn't care a hoot about primers and works so well for 1 1/8oz loads in the 1150 to 1200pfs range you just have to love it.

    So if you want one powder for all trap loads under 1200fps, use Red Dot.

    If you want one powder for all 1 and 1 1/8oz trap loads, use American Select.

    If you are willing to use two powders and want a no fuss, no bother, no worry approach, use Red Dot for 7/8 and 1oz loads and Green Dot for 1 1/8oz.

    If you are willing to put up with a few quirks and want the cleanest powder and best performance, use e3 for 1oz (and 7/8oz) and American Select for 1 1/8.

    For 20ga, Universal Clays and Unique are versatile. Unique is bulky. Next week Alliant will introduce a new powder named 20/28. It is more dense than Unique and very slightly faster burning.
     
  8. Ahab

    Ahab Well-Known Member

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    Zzt....that is probably the most concise and well written post that I have ever seen on TS.com!
     
  9. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    zzt and I are fairly close in out powder selection but I make one change. I use American Select for 1 oz and my light 1 1/8 singles load. I use Green Dot for my heavier handicap loads. I would never quibble about American Select vs. Red Dot. I do also believe that Green Dot is a bit slow for 1 oz or less loads.

    Pat Ireland
     
  10. poacherjoe

    poacherjoe Well-Known Member

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    zzt;In regards to your dislike of Promo's inconsistency,Would you say that if you purchased 6 keg's with the same lot # you would be happy.Is the problem strictly having to do with weighing the powder from lot to lot??Could you please explain the Performance issue??I only went with this for the simple reason of Cost and the comparison to Red dot.I have not had any problems with it.The Dirty powder thing I have never worried about because I always clean my guns after each use.Sure, I would much rather use other powders and I do but I have to keep the cost down.Thanks PJ
     
  11. shrek

    shrek Active Member

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    zzt makes several interesting observations.

    I have not tried any claydot yet, but plan to when I get the current supply of American Select and Clays reduced.

    I have had very good experiences with American Select and Clays. Can't complain about either of them.

    I have used American Select for 1 oz and light (aprox 1150 fps) 1 1/8 oz loads, in AA and STS hulls. The only primers I have tried it with have been Winchester 209's and Fiocchi 616.

    My experience has been the Winchester primers work great with it, have not ever had any Rem primers to try.

    The fiocchi primers did seem to leave a very very noticeable increase in unburned powder in the barrel.

    I am also intrigued about Alliant's new 20/28 powder. I shoot some sporting clays with a 20 gauge every once in a while for small bore contests.
     
  12. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Ahab.

    poacherjoe, the last thing in the world I would do is buy 6 jugs of Promo from the same lot. That's an awful lot of money to eat if you don't like the batch you got. Last winter they were a lot of complaints on TS.com about the available lots of Promo in cold weather. A couple people at my club stopped using it, because it was just awful. It's not the changing of bushings every lot that bothers me. I have just about every busing size Hornady/RCBS makes. It's the compositional and performance differences that bother me.

    Most powders released to reloaders are standardized. So lot A of XYZ powder is going to perform a lot like lot B of the same powder. Performance will be very similar, and even if there is a .3 grain change in charge weight thrown by the same bushing, nothing is going to blow up.

    Every time Alliant makes a batch of powder that could carry the Red Dot label, it is different. Sometimes by quite a bit. They sell the "standardized" lots to reloaders and the "off" lots as OEM powder.

    Promo is composed of a blend of end of lot OEM powders, mixed to burn at close to Red Dot speeds. That's why you can use Red Dot reloading data with Promo. However, Alliant uses whatever they have on hand. One time it may have 20% OEM Am Select, some OEM Red Dot and two other powders. The next it might be all OEM Red Dot speed powders. That's why the charge weights vary so much from lot to lot.

    I really don't have any quibble with Promo as a warm weather powder. If I decided to use it I would only buy a jug at a time, unless it was winter, I liked that lot after trying it, and I could buy more of the exact same lot. At $70/8lbs it is a good deal. However, I'd rather pay the $82/8lb for Clay Dot or the $85/8lb for Red Dot, Green Dot or Am Select and not have to worry about such things. Red Dot will be the same tomorrow, next week, next year, and probably next decade. That peace of mind is worth the extra cost to me.
     
  13. poacherjoe

    poacherjoe Well-Known Member

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    zzt;Thanks for the reply:I think I see where the difference is. I live in the central valley of california and we do not experiance alot of COLD temperatures therefore PROMO shoots great and I did buy 6 keg's when it first came out and all from the same lot # at a very low price.I think it was a good investment and the scores have proven that so far.Please tell me where you are getting your powder from??? The prices you listed are way better than I can come up with!I still have a preference for WW452 and that is hard to come by.But WST is just as good and it meters so evenly,every load exact.But the best price I can come up with is $110 for WST.Green dot is my second pick and I have 2 keg's of clay dot that I have yet to experiment with.I have switched to 1 oz. loads only and as long as I do what is needed The targets break great.Please get back to me about your source for powder.Thanks PJ.PS HAPPY FATHERS DAY!!!!
     
  14. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    I buy my powder from a local vendor just outside of Phila., PA, or from Richland Shooter's Supply in Richland, PA, or from CAC in Ebensville, PA.
     
  15. fritzi93

    fritzi93 TS Member

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    I also get my components from CAC, our club does a buy every January.

    One quibble about Solo 1000: last year it was $250/25 pounds, I'd say $10/pound is actually quite cheap, which is why I've used it for several years. If I could get one of the Alliant powders (excluding Promo) for $10/pound I'd go back. (Long-time Red Dot user here). As to variations between lots of Solo, it's true, but it's not too much trouble to check/reset when changing from from 25 pd. keg to the next. No, I don't shoot much in the winter anymore, so I can't comment on its behavior at low temperatures. [wink]
     
  16. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    fritzi93, just before Accurate was sold to Hodgdon I called the ballistician who put together the new loading data. We talked about the inconsistency problems and he gave me a list of the lot numbers that were right on, performance wise. I could not find any of them, so I missed out on the last of the 25 pounders. Now I can only find 8 lb jugs and the price is too high. I like Solo, but I actually like American Select better. At $85/8lb for AM Select and $98/8lb for Solo 1000, it's just no contest.

    TinMan88, after I hit submit I knew I forgot International Clays. It belongs with Solo 1000 and American Select. Even though Hodgdon's ballisticians rate its burn speed the same as Green Dot, I think it is faster. It is my favorite Hodgdon powder. Everyone raves about Clays. It is a good powder, but Int Clays is something special. It does everything well. I used to use boatloads of it. If Am Select hadn't come along, I'd still be using it. The two are absolutely equivalent powders. I use Am Select now because it costs $13 an 8lb jug less, and I use less of it per load.
     
  17. remman

    remman TS Member

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    zzt, Would your selection of American Select or International Clays be the same for use in an autloader? 1oz or 1 1/8 loads? Any problems or any better choices? Thank You, Jim
     
  18. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    remman, Am Select may be a tad cleaner, but other than that, no difference worth talking about. If you like one, you'll like the other, and so will your autoloader. BTW, I don't shoot an autoloader, but those who do and use Solo 1000 or Am Select or Int Clays have nothing bad to say about them.
     
  19. remman

    remman TS Member

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    zzt, Thank you for the info. Well written and very helpful....Jim
     
  20. 686

    686 TS Member

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    thanks zzt. i use to use red dot in the 60's have been using gd for about 15 yrs now. i am going to try am select. 1oz and 1 1/8 loads. you said e3 had more nitroglycerin in it and would harm hopper is left to long. does that mean some powders will have a loaded shelf life than others? i have about 15-20 shells left that i loaded in 69 with rd. i was shoting over my cro. one day and remered them. i shot 3 they were just as close as my present loads and factory. they were not stored propley eather. thanks again zzt for all your info. charles
     
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