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Potential solution to my cross firing problem

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by joe kuhn, Nov 25, 2011.

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  1. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    This is all theory at this point because I'm in the middle of working on the corrections. None of this my apply to you.

    1. My on-gun eye cannot read the bottom line on a distance chart. Off-gun eye can.

    2. The object I'm looking at moves up and down when closing one eye and then the other. I get left/right movement as well, which is expected, but up down movement is not.

    First problem has been fixed with a new eye glass prescription. Have been wearing glasses for years, but more recently both lenses were off slightly per eye doc. Got new lenses last weekend. Didn't know my on-gun eye was worse off.

    Will go back to eye doc and discuss the optical centers of lenses. Wouldn't it be something if the optical center needs to be different for each lens per second problem? The goal of vision correction is to make the two eyes see the same, according to the doctor.

    Here's hoping.
     
  2. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

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    Do you mean adjusting the optical centers for just your shooting lenses? I think it would be a bad idea for your normal specs. May make you walk into walls and such. I say this because with your gun mounted you look thru a different section of your lenses than you do with normal everyday viewing thru the glasses.
     
  3. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Good thought to bring up with eye doc. I do have my old glasses to fall back on. Thanks.

    Joe
     
  4. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Wait a minute - why should it be that I'm using a different part of my glasses for shooting versus normal wear and tear around town? Shouldn't your gun fit you to the point that this is not the case?
     
  5. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

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    Ask a shooting glasses specialist. A doc that specializes in shooting glasses will have you mount your gun and adjust the optical centers to best benefit your gun mount. Trust me when i say you look thru a different part of your lenses when shooting. This is why Ranger and Decot glasses sit higher on your face. This is so when you are down on your gun you are not looking thru the very top part of your glasses instead making it centered. With normal eyeglasses, you will be looking thru the upper portion of your lenses when shooting and not always thru the optical centers.

    Have you ever noticed how funky the Ranger and Decot glasses look on people when they are not shooting?
     
  6. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    The problem is summed up in your last sentence. What the doc wants and what you need are different.

    Each eye supplies an image to your brain, your brain takes the best image and uses that data to hit the target. You want the corrected vision in your on gun eye to be a little better than your off gun eye. That way your brain will use the information supplied by your on gun eye and you will avoid cross firing.

    The main problem is with the eye doc, they are brain washed to provide you with the perfect perscription for vision in both eyes. Thats great when driving a car but not good when shooting a shotgun with both eyes open.

    The next problem is the placement of the optical center of the lens. For me it is best when placed 3mm above the center of the lens. The only way to take the guess work out of the placement is to mount your gun and see the relationship between your on gun eye, the front bead, and the lens. HMB
     
  7. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

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    Joe,

    Mount your gun looking in a mirror and see where your eyes line up as opposed to there they would be if you were standing and or walking ... You will see the difference they are talking about, it might be a little or could be a lot depending on how you mount the gun ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  8. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Thanks fellas. Good stuff to work on when I get back home from visiting the relatives. I am sure Sears Optical doesn't want me lugging the BarraKuhner into the mall, so I may have to go to a shooter's eye doc. My guy is a rifle shooter so we'll see what can be worked out. Pretty sure he lives in the area. Maybe we can meet at the range and I can introduce him to trap shooting in exchange for a little extra help.
     
  9. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

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    Joe,

    You may want to seek an eye doctor speacializing in shotgun sports or at least with a strong knowledge in that area. I could be wrong but i think rifle, pistol and shotgun glasses are not all set up the same.

    Matt
     
  10. GW22

    GW22 Active Member

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    Try this:


    gw22_2008_030311.jpg


    If it doesn't work, then at least be merciful and shoot me with it.

    -Gary
     
  11. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    grntitan, we'll see how far my local guy is willing to go first.

    The concept of having better correction for the on-gun eye is interesting. I'm sure my guy can do that. He has been responsive so far and I'm sure they're willing to sell me what I want. They're really nice folks. Holga had a problem with the cheapo glasses place a couple of doors down at the mall, which I told Sears about and so my doctor double checked my glasses to be sure they were exactly what he prescribed before I went back to pick them up. Glasses Plus gave her lenses that were way off, but they replaced them for free.

    Next I want to discuss optical centers and how my eyes aren't flat (item #2 in first post) with my doctor. Then the better correction concept. Then how it all works with a gun mounted. I better make a list. Hah!

    There's plenty to do right here in the vision correction area now that I'm off for the winter. Looking forward to spring and those few warmer days in winter.
     
  12. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Gary - where you at? I'm in Naperville, IL. I would love to try shooting your double rib gun.
     
  13. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    HMB - you said, "For me it is best when placed 3mm above the center of the lens".

    How do you know this about your optical centers? Did you measure something? Please give me some kind of procedure. Since my eyes don't see 'flat' I presume I'll need to measure each eye, but then the off-gun eye is not supposed to be so heavily involved. So what would be used to measure the optical center for my off-gun eye?

    Also, you said, "Each eye supplies an image to your brain, your brain takes the best image and uses that data to hit the target."

    How do you know this? That makes sense to me, but reality is often a ruse. I'm just asking for more details.

    Thanks so much.

    Joe
     
  14. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    For us old guys perscription needs for rifle, pistol, and shotgun are all different for optimum results.

    Pistol shooting requires a clear, sharp, front and rear sight picture. The precise alignment of the front sight with the rear sight is critical.

    Rifle shooting requires a clear and crisp front sight inorder to center the target in the aperture.

    Shotgun shooting requires a clear and crisp view of the target.

    Pistol glasses are similar to weak reading glass perscription, rifle requires a weak distance vision correction, and shotgun shooting is best done with a full distance vision perscription. HMB
     
  15. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    HMB - Full distance is what I got, but optical centers were never discussed. This is soon to change. Thanks for the general info.

    Joe
     
  16. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Joe,

    I'll try to answer your questions. Finding where to place the optical center of your aiming eye lens is fairly easy. Put on your shooting glasses, mount your gun, aim the unloaded gun at the head of one of your friends who is equiped with a magic marker. He will look down the rib with the beads aligned and mark on the lens of your aiming eye where the front bead and the center of your eye intersect. That is where your eye looks through the lens and where the optical center should be placed.

    For your information this is important because the optical center of the lens has 100 percent of the perscription. As you move away from the optical center of the lens the amount of correction decreases. HMB
     
  17. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    You wrote: "2. The object I'm looking at moves up and down when closing one eye and then the other. I get left/right movement as well, which is expected, but up down movement is not."

    I get this phenomena everytime. I am unable to close just my right eye without closing both so I have to test this by putting my hand in front of my one eye and then switch to the other eye. I get the horizantal and vertical shift but the vertical shift is less pro-nounced. Dr. Rich Colo used to post to trapshooters.com and he has the research to show the relative strength of eye dominance. He has written articles for Sporting Clays shooters. I don't think many shooters have had very good luck with the idea of having a weaker correction for the off shoulder eye. According to the book "An Insight to Sports" by Dr. Wayne Martin your 2 eyes are supposed to converge at long distance so the crossfire would be related to the wrong eye using the bead/rib reference. Phil Kiner's video says the problem is Not that the wrong eye sees the bead but the problem is the wrong eye locks on the target. Evidently nobody else in the whole world has my type of Crossfire where I can shoot right over the top of a target because my barrel/bead/rib is almost transparent with both eyes open. So far using the patch on my left lens is not working out for me after 55 years of shooting a shotgun with both eyes open; I hope somebody comes up with a method that works.
     
  18. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Thank you HMB. I particularly like the concept that the optical centers should be adjusted for a clear and crisp view of the target. That involves the bead when we're talking my right eye and the target when we're talking the other eye.

    Anybody want to bet my optical centers are better positioned off-gun than on-gun lens-wise?

    Good discussion. I feel well prepared to discuss where I want the optical centers now.

    Joe
     
  19. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    miketmx - You are unable to close just your right eye without closing both? I've never heard of that. Have you looked into the optical center question?

    I'm wondering if cross-firing is ever a problem for shooters who don't need corrective eye wear.
     
  20. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    Joe it is just a matter of coordination with the lack of ability to close only my right eye. I have used the same optical center thing that HMB talked about for the last 45 years. My centers are offset 3 mm to the left and as high as Decot normally does for shooting glasses, I maintain my regular pupilar distance between optical centers.
     
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