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pos or neg pitch question

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by 338reddog, Jan 1, 2013.

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  1. 338reddog

    338reddog Member

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    Does changing the pitch on a stock change the sight picture. A friend had his BT 99 shortend and a trapdude rocker pad installed (it appears heel is longer than toe). It is now slapping his face. So now he has had a adj comb installed. Yesterday he asked me to go with him to the gunsmith and see how it all fits. He says he is seeing about 6-8 inches between the beads(had this since he bought it). with the pad off he stacks the beads. So you guessed it he is going to have the stock shortened more.
    He wants my opinion as to what he should do. I think he will need to shorten it some as he is short and has short arms. But I really dont know what to tell him. The gun is a 1985 BT 99 MC stock 32" barrel. I told him to send it to Tron.
    Any advise?

    Jeff
     
  2. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    "He says he is seeing about 6-8 inches between the beads(had this since he bought it)."

    He needs to look at the target not the beads. What is between the beads doesn't mean a thing if he can still break targets. If stacking the beads is his goal tell us what it will prove???

    When shooting I never look at the beads and if I look a the targets I have no trouble breaking targets.

    BTW my beads don't stack either.

    Bob Lawless
     
  3. slayer

    slayer Well-Known Member

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    The more space between the beads, the higher the p.o.i.If this works for him, no problem. Most shooters prefer the "snowman" look to the beads, as do I. My point of impact is 6 inches high at 30 yards with the beads stacked. How your stock is set up means everything when talking about sight picture. It sounds like your friend needs a good gun fitter. This would mean an in-person visit, not "sending it out". Bill
     
  4. MDMike

    MDMike Well-Known Member

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    If she's slapping him in the face he might want to get a negative pitch spacer (thin at the top, thick at the bottom).
     
  5. 338reddog

    338reddog Member

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    I have told him not to look at the beads. He has only shot 500 rounds through the gun. He is shooting 18-21 average. This is his first trap gun, and his is trying to get it to fit. I hate to see him make to many changes at one time.
     
  6. larrycrismond

    larrycrismond Member

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    Face slap is no fun and is usually caused by not having enough down pitch. Tell your friend to try adding washers between the stock butt and the top of the recoil pad until the muzzle jump goes away. Then have a pitch wedge installed with the same angle.
     
  7. gordy h

    gordy h Member

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    OK which is it? one said add washers to the top of your pad the other said add a thicker spacer to the bottom
     
  8. slayer

    slayer Well-Known Member

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    I can only speak for myself and what works for me, but I look at the beads. I always see the end bead and the relation of it to the bird. I am always in the high 20's from the 16 with my share of 25's, so I feel that what I'm doing works for me. It's ok to look at the beads if you feel comfortable with it, in fact I replace the stock bead with a more visible Dayglo "fatbead". Bill
     
  9. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Stand the gun up in a door way with the rib against the wall and the butt on the floor. With the proper amount of pitch the muzzle should be 3 to 4 inches from the wall. When the gun is mounted the heel and toe should contact the shoulder pocket equally. HMB
     
  10. mtimney

    mtimney TS Member

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    If the gun is hitting him in the face, and he's not raising his head or starting with a raised head, it generally means that you need to add spacers at the top of the butt pad. It can also mean that the comb is too high and he's tilting his head downward too much in order to get a sight picture.

    The experts almost all agree that you want your gun to fit so that the beads form a figure 8. You can shoot well without them making a figure 8 if the point of aim is okay for whatever it is you're seeing. HOWEVER, it is much easier to check gun alignment/mount/etc. before you shoot if the fit is such that you easily see a figure 8 before you call for the bird. (You don't have to estimate the gap or overlap between the beads that way...and this makes consistency a little easier.) Then, you should consider Point of Aim and work from there.

    As to how much you see the beads....that's a whole other argument.

    Mark T.
     
  11. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    "He has only shot 500 rounds through the gun. He is shooting 18-21 average."

    Well it is easy to see that by shooting less rounds than the average ATA shooter has a with him at any one time. He is already worried about the figure eight of the beads.

    "I look at the beads. I always see the end bead and the relation of it to the bird"

    Your eyes can only focus on one object at a time. It isn't possible to focus on more than one object at time. If you are seeing the beads it is in your secondary vision and they can't be clear. Therefore you wouldn't know how many inches of rib between the beads. It is just phyically impossible.

    Bob Lawless
     
  12. 338reddog

    338reddog Member

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    I dont know if he only looks at beads when he first mounts the gun or if he tries to concentrate on the bead to bird relationship. The gunsmith said the gun is to long for him by the elbow to trigger finger method. What is the best method for measuring length of pull? When he mounts the gun on his browning 625 wich
    has not been cut he has about three inches between his thumb and nose. with his shortened BT99 and no pad he has about a inch. I just dont want to see him make a big mistake by cutting to much off the gun.
     
  13. Tech Writer Jeff

    Tech Writer Jeff Active Member

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    Perhaps I can re-focus the discussion.

    Two unrelated concepts are getting mixed together in some of the posts above: "Don't look at the beads" and "choosing how high you want your eye above the rib". They are two different things. It's always mildly annoying (to me, at least) when a shooter states he sees some space between the beads, somebody immediately ups and says, "ignore it . . . you're not supposed to look at the beads, harrumph, harrumph".

    Sure, nearly all of us agree that you're not supposed to be focusing heavily on the beads WHILE ACTUALLY SHOOTING at real targets. But the Original Poster was in the gunsmith shop when the questions posted were raised. When you're working on stock fit and POI, of course you look at the beads. Telling somebody to not look at the beads during this (non-firing) procedure is equivalent to saying, "when you first take your new gun out of the box, just ignore how much space you might be seeing between the beads since you're not supposed to be looking at them anyway". That's total nonsense of course, since we all know that eye height directly influences a shooter's Vertical POI.

    A high eye height and correspondingly high POI just plain may not work for many shooters. If this is verified by subsequent testing on real targets, then changes to the comb height (and thus eye height) are warranted.

    Suppose his HORIZONTAL eye position has a problem due to the factory stock. If his eye was 1/2-inch to one side of the rib, would you tell him to ignore that too, since he's "not supposed to be looking at the beads"? Didn't think so. So why would vertical eye position be treated differently?

    338reddog: you were correct when you said your friend was changing too many things at once. Your friend's observations with the Rocker pad on and off are "interesting", but the Length-of-Pull difference between "pad on" and "pad off" is a significant amount. You asked if a pitch change could change sight picture. But your friend didn't change pitch only. By removing the Rocker pad (and shouldering a gun without any recoil pad at all?), he changed pitch and Length-of-Pull (by a full inch or more, I'd wager) at the same time. Which one (or both) was responsible for your friend's different eye placement? You can't tell when you change two things at once.

    Why did your friend choose the Rocker Pad? They're great pads . . . most folks use them when the toe of a conventionally-shaped pad digs into their shoulder. The Rocker pad itself changes pitch compared to other pad types. Whether or not this is the cause of the face slap, I don't know. The good news is, experimenting with different amounts of pitch doesn't cost much. Try something . . . anything. Try some washers on the bottom pad screw. If that doesn’t work, change the washers to the top screw. Or, try a flat pad instead of the Rocker pad.

    Your friend needs to settle on one LOP (the elbow-to-trigger-finger is a poor method, by the way) and THEN configure his comb to provide the eye height/POI required to break targets reliably using his particular shooting technique. That might be Figure-8, or it might not be. It all depends on the individual shooter and individual gun.
     
  14. likes-to-shoot

    likes-to-shoot Well-Known Member

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    The gunsmith is a quack if he measures by "the elbow to trigger finger method." Get him away from that particular gunsmith and ask around the club where they go. If they go to the same guy find a different club and ask.

    Don't let hinm keep cutting of the stock till he finds someone who knows what they are doing.
     
  15. WoodsonEnt

    WoodsonEnt Active Member

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    *Rocker Pad* Most shooters who shoot a Rocker type pad will experience face slap. I put one on a BT99 once and couldn't wait to get it off. Depending on the shooters physique, this is probably the cause of face slap. If he puts a straight or curved pad on gun and still experiences face slap - it is a pitch issue.

    In my experience a Rocker type pad does 1 thing........Rocks the gun right up in my face.
     
  16. Ross

    Ross Well-Known Member

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    Listen to mtimney & Tech Writer Jeff, they have the right ideas. Ross Puls
     
  17. Rollin Oswald

    Rollin Oswald Active Member

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    Jeff,

    I agree with those who wrote that your friend should find another gunsmith. That one, like many others knows little or nothing about fitting a gun to a shooter or eliminating "cheek slap," which is the common name for what he isufferingng.

    I agree that a change in pitch is the first thing to try - add s shim/washers to the top of the recoil pad.

    Someone also mentioned the position of his head when shots are fired. With the cheek even slightly above the comb when the gun fires, cheek slap is very likely.

    I too do not like rounded/rocker/convex recoil pads. And they do increase barrel rise during recoil because the gun's pivot point is lowered on rocker pads. The farther that pivot point is below the barrel, the more barrel (comb) rise there will be during recoil.

    Your friend needs to learn someting about how the different stock dimensions interrelate and how they affect different aspects of shooting clay targets.

    Your friend's stock does not fit him. Suggest that he visit a good stock fitter, one who will teach him something about shooting form (how to shoot) and change his stock's dimensions so he could shoot that way.

    Also, suggest that he do it soon, before he developes a flinch that may be difficult to eliminate.

    Rollin
     
  18. Dave Berlet

    Dave Berlet Active Member

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    I'm not here to argue, just state my opinion. Over the many years that I have helped shooters and hunters with stock fit I have not found a single case where putting in or adding to down pitch has helped someone who is getting slapped on the cheek bone area of the face. Go to zero pitch and the face slap will usually go away. In a few situations rolling your face down as you mount the gun can also cause face slap and having a stock too long can also cause this problem. The number one reason for face slap is down pitch.

    There is no good rule of thumb for determining stock length. I have found that I need to see a person mount and shoulder the gun to determine the correct length of pull for them.

    As a general rule gun fitting is not an exact science, but mainly common sense. Also I prefer a basic flat pad over a curved pad, or a rocker type pad. Maybe someone will jump on here and explain how zero pitch helped them.

    On point of impact the pitch or lack of pitch at the butt end of the stock is not a major factor on changing the point of impact. How flat you look down the rib or how high above the rib you look is what changes the point of impact. You need to know where your point of impact is with the beads in a figure 8. If the POI is not where you want it you need to adjust your rib to where you want the POI. If you have an adjustable rib this is fairly easy. If you don't have this luxury an option is an add on rib. When the POI is where you want it with a figure 8 then raise the stock so you have a tiny bit of space between the beads. You can have a small amount of flexibility with the sight picture, but if you get a lot of space between the beads you lose the advantage of having a rib.

    These comments are some things that I have learned in my over 50 years of competition shooting and my many years of helping shooters with gun fitting.

    Dave Berlet
     
  19. 548

    548 Guest

    How do you determine zero pitch?
     
  20. Dave Berlet

    Dave Berlet Active Member

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    On a trap stock which runs straight from front to back the butt should be at a right angle to the top.

    Dave
     
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