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Ponzi, Ponzi, Ponzi

Discussion in 'Politics, Elections & Legislation' started by mrskeet410, Sep 14, 2011.

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  1. mrskeet410

    mrskeet410 TS Member

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    John Stossle wrote -

    "Ponzi! Ponzi! Ponzi! There, I said it. To the extent people believe there are trust funds with their names on them, Social Security is absolutely a Ponzi scheme. So is Medicare. People need to hear it.

    Many people think that when the government takes payroll tax from their paychecks, it goes to something like a savings account. Seniors who collect Social Security think they're just getting back money that they put into their "account." Or they think it's like an insurance policy -- you win if you live long enough to get more than you paid in. Neither is true. Nothing is invested. The money taken from you was spent by government that year. Right away. There's no trust fund. The plan is unsustainable. Medicare is worse."

    Whole article at link
     
  2. mrskeet410

    mrskeet410 TS Member

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    3,064
    John Stossle wrote -

    "Ponzi! Ponzi! Ponzi! There, I said it. To the extent people believe there are trust funds with their names on them, Social Security is absolutely a Ponzi scheme. So is Medicare. People need to hear it.

    Many people think that when the government takes payroll tax from their paychecks, it goes to something like a savings account. Seniors who collect Social Security think they're just getting back money that they put into their "account." Or they think it's like an insurance policy -- you win if you live long enough to get more than you paid in. Neither is true. Nothing is invested. The money taken from you was spent by government that year. Right away. There's no trust fund. The plan is unsustainable. Medicare is worse."

    Whole article at link
     
  3. IndyShotgun

    IndyShotgun TS Member

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    Isn't every insurance policy a ponzi scheme, by your definition? When you buy a life insurance policy for $100K, the insurance company doesn't run out and buy a $100K CD with your name on it or make a $100K deposit in a bank FBO you. Ditto a fixed annuity or auto insurance. The nature of all insurance is that future policyholders will see their premiums used to pay claims of prior policyholders.
     
  4. IndyShotgun

    IndyShotgun TS Member

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    Isn't every insurance policy a ponzi scheme, by your definition? When you buy a life insurance policy for $100K, the insurance company doesn't run out and buy a $100K CD with your name on it or make a $100K deposit in a bank FBO you. Ditto a fixed annuity or auto insurance. The nature of all insurance is that future policyholders will see their premiums used to pay claims of prior policyholders.
     
  5. grnberetcj

    grnberetcj Active Member

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    And this is "current news"??

    The Social Security system is merely a taxpayer fraud started and perpetuated by the Dem's.

    Social Security should be eliminated for all the younger workers and they may invest as they see fit. No "Gimmies" in the future...invest now or take a ride on the ice flow later, their choice.

    FEAB9

    Curt
     
  6. grnberetcj

    grnberetcj Active Member

    Joined:
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    And this is "current news"??

    The Social Security system is merely a taxpayer fraud started and perpetuated by the Dem's.

    Social Security should be eliminated for all the younger workers and they may invest as they see fit. No "Gimmies" in the future...invest now or take a ride on the ice flow later, their choice.

    FEAB9

    Curt
     
  7. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    Green Bay Wisconsin
  8. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    Green Bay Wisconsin
  9. daddiooo

    daddiooo TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    Curt,

    It would tickle me to death if they'd give me 50% of what I've paid in over the last 38 years so I could invest it to insure my old age.

    The time of the gimme programs needs to end.

    Government does nothing well, except steal from and lie to the taxpayers.
     
  10. daddiooo

    daddiooo TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    Curt,

    It would tickle me to death if they'd give me 50% of what I've paid in over the last 38 years so I could invest it to insure my old age.

    The time of the gimme programs needs to end.

    Government does nothing well, except steal from and lie to the taxpayers.
     
  11. timberfaller

    timberfaller Well-Known Member

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    Here's where things went bad for SS.

    First the Politicians "stole" from the trust fund, thanks Teddie K.

    Then the Politicians exempted themselves from having to pay in, but can have it once they hit retirement plus their pension.

    Then after a set income amount, you don't have it taken out of the extra income your making.

    The Biggest fraud to happen, is the illegals who get it plus medicare for all their kids!!!!!!!!!!!

    NOW can you tell me why its broke?

    SS was to help the poor, Why do you think the government WANT'S more "regulations" in the work place? YOU create more poor people by doing that!!
     
  12. timberfaller

    timberfaller Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2007
    Messages:
    7,971
    Location:
    Eastern Washington
    Here's where things went bad for SS.

    First the Politicians "stole" from the trust fund, thanks Teddie K.

    Then the Politicians exempted themselves from having to pay in, but can have it once they hit retirement plus their pension.

    Then after a set income amount, you don't have it taken out of the extra income your making.

    The Biggest fraud to happen, is the illegals who get it plus medicare for all their kids!!!!!!!!!!!

    NOW can you tell me why its broke?

    SS was to help the poor, Why do you think the government WANT'S more "regulations" in the work place? YOU create more poor people by doing that!!
     
  13. birdogs

    birdogs TS Member

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    Instead of Bernie just whiling away his time in prison, let's make him head of the Social Security Administration. Ponzi himself is unavailable, being long dead.
     
  14. birdogs

    birdogs TS Member

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    Instead of Bernie just whiling away his time in prison, let's make him head of the Social Security Administration. Ponzi himself is unavailable, being long dead.
     
  15. Rick Barker

    Rick Barker Well-Known Member

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    Social Security was never originally created to help the poor. That part was added many years later.

    The original concept was to set up a fund to supplement retired people's income.

    When it was created during FDR, the average lifespan of a person was 67 YOA.

    You were supposed collect it when you retired at the age of 65.

    The original intent was to pay out a small portion back to the retirees and the government was going to pocket the rest, after the retiree died.

    Another problem created was when "early retirement" was added at age 62, as well as "Widows and Orphans", disability, etc., etc.,

    During LBJ, term 1964-1968, the Dems amended SS to put the money from the fund and all future collections in the General Budget so they could fund LBJ's "War on Poverty," the greatest wealth transfer in the history of mankind, also one of the greatest failures of all time and all that legislation is still on the books.
     
  16. Rick Barker

    Rick Barker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2009
    Messages:
    14,394
    Social Security was never originally created to help the poor. That part was added many years later.

    The original concept was to set up a fund to supplement retired people's income.

    When it was created during FDR, the average lifespan of a person was 67 YOA.

    You were supposed collect it when you retired at the age of 65.

    The original intent was to pay out a small portion back to the retirees and the government was going to pocket the rest, after the retiree died.

    Another problem created was when "early retirement" was added at age 62, as well as "Widows and Orphans", disability, etc., etc.,

    During LBJ, term 1964-1968, the Dems amended SS to put the money from the fund and all future collections in the General Budget so they could fund LBJ's "War on Poverty," the greatest wealth transfer in the history of mankind, also one of the greatest failures of all time and all that legislation is still on the books.
     
  17. mrskeet410

    mrskeet410 TS Member

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    Rick Barker - Where did the contributions to SS go before 1964?

    And what's this it helping the poor?
     
  18. mrskeet410

    mrskeet410 TS Member

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    Rick Barker - Where did the contributions to SS go before 1964?

    And what's this it helping the poor?
     
  19. Rick Barker

    Rick Barker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    14,394
    The funds/contributions collected for SS have gone to the same place they have always gone, since the inception of SS:

    "All securities held by the trust funds are "special issues" of the United States Treasury. Such securities are available only to the trust funds."

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------


    'Unlike a typical private pension plan, the Social Security Trust Fund does not hold any marketable assets to secure workers' paid-in contributions. Instead, it holds non-negotiable United States Treasury bonds and U.S. securities backed "by the full faith and credit of the government". The Office of Management and Budget has described the distinction as follows:

    These [Trust Fund] balances are available to finance future benefit payments and other Trust Fund expenditures – but only in a bookkeeping sense.... They do not consist of real economic assets that can be drawn down in the future to fund benefits. Instead, they are claims on the Treasury that, when redeemed, will have to be financed by raising taxes, borrowing from the public, or reducing benefits or other expenditures. The existence of large Trust Fund balances, therefore, does not, by itself, have any impact on the Government’s ability to pay benefits. (from FY 2000 Budget, Analytical Perspectives, p. 337)


    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    http://www.chron.com/opinion/king/article/Social-Security-is-no-Ponzi-scheme-Bill-King-2171068.php

    Bill King, Houston Chronicle

    "The income that Social Security has received in excess of its expenses has been placed into separate trust funds for the payment of pensions and disability benefits. At the end of 2010, there was about $2.4 trillion in the OASI trust fund and $179 billion in the DI trust fund. In addition to the income that Social Security receives from the payroll tax, it also earns interest on the investment of these trust funds. In 2010, Social Security earned $117 billion in interest payments.

    Part of the controversy surrounding Social Security is how these trust funds are invested. In regular pension plans, the income would be invested in a variety of stocks and bonds to both diversify the risk and maximize the return. However, all of Social Security's income is invested in U.S. securities.
    So the federal government is collecting the payroll tax and then loaning itself the excess. You may have heard critics of Social Security allege that there is no money in the Social Security trust fund and that Congress has already spent all of the money paid into the system. Since the federal government has used the proceeds to finance its ongoing expenditures, the criticism is in some sense true. But on the other hand, U.S. securities are recognized as one of the safest investments in the world by the market."

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I did not mean to imply that SS has been amended to help the poor.

    The "War on Poverty is a separate issue. It was sold on the idea of The Great Society and was an extension of FDR's social welfare programs.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "As a part of the Great Society, Johnson's belief in expanding the government's role in social welfare programs from education to health care was a continuation of Franklin D. Roosevelt's New Deal, which ran from 1933 to 1935, and the Four Freedoms of 1941."

    "The Four Freedoms were goals articulated by US President Franklin D. Roosevelt on January 6, 1941. In an address known as the Four Freedoms speech (technically the 1941 State of the Union address), he proposed four fundamental freedoms that people "everywhere in the world" ought to enjoy:
    1.Freedom of speech and expression
    2.Freedom of worship
    3.Freedom from want
    4.Freedom from fear"

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    Again, worth repeating from Bill King article:

    "Since the federal government has used the proceeds to finance its ongoing expenditures, the criticism is in some sense true. But on the other hand, U.S. securities are recognized as one of the safest investments in the world by the market."

    With the Government "loaning" the excesses to itself, it is playing accounting games that it would send a private business owner to jail for doing the same thing. And it will never be able to pay back those loans with a 14 trillion dollar debt.
     
  20. Rick Barker

    Rick Barker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2009
    Messages:
    14,394
    The funds/contributions collected for SS have gone to the same place they have always gone, since the inception of SS:

    "All securities held by the trust funds are "special issues" of the United States Treasury. Such securities are available only to the trust funds."

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------


    'Unlike a typical private pension plan, the Social Security Trust Fund does not hold any marketable assets to secure workers' paid-in contributions. Instead, it holds non-negotiable United States Treasury bonds and U.S. securities backed "by the full faith and credit of the government". The Office of Management and Budget has described the distinction as follows:

    These [Trust Fund] balances are available to finance future benefit payments and other Trust Fund expenditures – but only in a bookkeeping sense.... They do not consist of real economic assets that can be drawn down in the future to fund benefits. Instead, they are claims on the Treasury that, when redeemed, will have to be financed by raising taxes, borrowing from the public, or reducing benefits or other expenditures. The existence of large Trust Fund balances, therefore, does not, by itself, have any impact on the Government’s ability to pay benefits. (from FY 2000 Budget, Analytical Perspectives, p. 337)


    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    http://www.chron.com/opinion/king/article/Social-Security-is-no-Ponzi-scheme-Bill-King-2171068.php

    Bill King, Houston Chronicle

    "The income that Social Security has received in excess of its expenses has been placed into separate trust funds for the payment of pensions and disability benefits. At the end of 2010, there was about $2.4 trillion in the OASI trust fund and $179 billion in the DI trust fund. In addition to the income that Social Security receives from the payroll tax, it also earns interest on the investment of these trust funds. In 2010, Social Security earned $117 billion in interest payments.

    Part of the controversy surrounding Social Security is how these trust funds are invested. In regular pension plans, the income would be invested in a variety of stocks and bonds to both diversify the risk and maximize the return. However, all of Social Security's income is invested in U.S. securities.
    So the federal government is collecting the payroll tax and then loaning itself the excess. You may have heard critics of Social Security allege that there is no money in the Social Security trust fund and that Congress has already spent all of the money paid into the system. Since the federal government has used the proceeds to finance its ongoing expenditures, the criticism is in some sense true. But on the other hand, U.S. securities are recognized as one of the safest investments in the world by the market."

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I did not mean to imply that SS has been amended to help the poor.

    The "War on Poverty is a separate issue. It was sold on the idea of The Great Society and was an extension of FDR's social welfare programs.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "As a part of the Great Society, Johnson's belief in expanding the government's role in social welfare programs from education to health care was a continuation of Franklin D. Roosevelt's New Deal, which ran from 1933 to 1935, and the Four Freedoms of 1941."

    "The Four Freedoms were goals articulated by US President Franklin D. Roosevelt on January 6, 1941. In an address known as the Four Freedoms speech (technically the 1941 State of the Union address), he proposed four fundamental freedoms that people "everywhere in the world" ought to enjoy:
    1.Freedom of speech and expression
    2.Freedom of worship
    3.Freedom from want
    4.Freedom from fear"

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    Again, worth repeating from Bill King article:

    "Since the federal government has used the proceeds to finance its ongoing expenditures, the criticism is in some sense true. But on the other hand, U.S. securities are recognized as one of the safest investments in the world by the market."

    With the Government "loaning" the excesses to itself, it is playing accounting games that it would send a private business owner to jail for doing the same thing. And it will never be able to pay back those loans with a 14 trillion dollar debt.
     
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