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pointing labs

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by littleriver, Apr 6, 2008.

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  1. littleriver

    littleriver TS Member

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    One yellow male and one black male. Both are very affectionate and well mannored dogs. They both have been hunting for two years.

    Both dogs are obedience trained, collar conditioned, force broke, retrieve to hand, and are under great control in the field. Both dogs point and release on command and go to the water well.

    I am in the process of starting handling on these dogs. Price will go up as training level advances. littleriver@abe.midco.net

    Home 605-262-0844
    Cell 605-395-7799
     
  2. Pocatello

    Pocatello Active Member

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    I don't consider myself to be an expert retriever trainer, although I did participate heavily in AKC Retriever Field Trials and Hunt Tests for ten years, '88-'98. If they have both been hunted for two years they must be at least three years old. Isn't that a little old to start handling? Most Labs I'm familiar with will start their handling training by about six months.
     
  3. jim brown

    jim brown Well-Known Member

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    EE

    If you are going to stir that much you need a paddle.

    jim brown
     
  4. Bruce Specht

    Bruce Specht Well-Known Member

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    EE my labs will out hunt a pointer any day of the week! Haven't bred a pointer that can hunt with a well trained lab. Thats right you started stiring it so you need to deal with it. Ask a pointer what it wnats to be when it grows up the answer is " I want to be a lab"
     
  5. Dove Commander

    Dove Commander TS Member

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    Labs are great in a corn field, but in CRP, roadsides, or fence rows, a pointer is the trick. As usual, everyone has their preference. After losing my 8 year lab to cancer, I pondered what would be the best replacement, cause I duck hunt too. I also have a 5 year Ryman setter. I chose a Drahthaar. Their bold, brush busters, hunt all day, compete with a lab for cold water retrieves, and are a pointer. Retreiving is heavy in their genes. We now have 3. I could consider a pointing lab if I was primarily a duck hunter, who occasionally hunted pheasants. To each his own, this could be argued forever. There is no perfect dog....or trainer.
     
  6. Dove Commander

    Dove Commander TS Member

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    Sarge, labs are used for the "special" work because they are trackers, not air scenters. In a big open field a pointer will out shine a lab. In a flushing field like corn or cattails the lab will dominate. Comparing the breeds at a "play to pay" club will always give a lab the advantage because those birds have a tendancy to run more than fly. A tracking dog can do his thing there. On wild birds that circle, double back, or absolutely sit tight, a pointer works best. When it comes to wild birds, a well trained, experienced dog will figure it out. Pointers require more commands because of the distance in which they operate. Of the 6 labs and 5 pointers I've had in 30 years, the pointers were more bidable. If your lab stumbles across a pheasant while 60 yards away, will he hold it there for you till your in range? Not unlees he's a pointing lab. Also, it's a known fact that all dogs pick up scent better in cold weather. My shortailed Drahthaars swim in December for the hell of it. My Draht pointed over 200 birds this year and retreived plenty of waterfowl and over 300 doves. But then again, thats what he's suppose to do.
     
  7. JDinTX

    JDinTX Member

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    I will only say that I have seen no other more rounded/one dog that can do it all well and still have a fantastic personality than my pointing lab. So much so that I don't think I can own another breed now that I've had one. I've seen dogs that could out hunt a pointing, but not by much and that was all they were good for. JD
     
  8. Force Break

    Force Break TS Member

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    This discussion about pointing labs vs birddogs is like the eternal discussion of 71/2 shot or 8's. I have spent the better part of my adult like running trials and hunt tests with both types, AKC with the labs and NSTRA with the birddogs. Our hunting crew hunt both flushers and pointers together in big CRP Fields and the labs and a hunting cocker down in the deep brush. These are trained dogs so we do not have 65 yard flushes by the flushers and have dogs that will hold point three hundred yards out and can relocate with out busting the birds.
    I agree with the poster that mentioned that starting handling at three years is a pretty late start. I have always found that the next step after force breaking is the beginning of handling, it is just a natural progression to handling.
    That post about the labs being house dogs so long they have lost their hunt, wrong, maybe some lines but be thankful that there are enough of us that really use these dogs for hunting that the breed will not ride into the sunset in the back of a Mini van.
    Go Well and Laugh Often
    Wayne
     
  9. wolfram

    wolfram Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure the guy selling the labs will find a deserving buyer. I have a big yellow lab that has grown up with a pair of GSPs and somewhere along the way he learned to point birds. My lab may not perform at the level the GSPs do but he finds plenty of birds for me and I enjoy hunting with him. Mostly we hunt valley quail and Chukar. The quail tend to hold very tight where as the Chukar like to run (always up hill). The lab handles both situations well because he has experience and he really wants to get a dead bird for me. And yes the lab lives in the house with the rest of the family and if that has ruinined his retriever skills so be it, seems to me that he continually brings me things though. As far as which hunting breed is the best, well that question will never be resolved because they are all great.

    Bird hunting is supposed to be about having fun in the field with your best friend. It is not about keeping score to prove some kind of superiority, you really don't need a $5K dog and a $10K shotgun to be a good bird hunter.
     
  10. Doug Brown

    Doug Brown Well-Known Member

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    How long will these "pointing labs" hold a point?
     
  11. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    Our Lab did the "Pause before the Pounce" and that was good enough for me. There was never any doubt when he was on a bird but I always had enough time to be ready and he was Not timid about getting the bird to flush.
     
  12. Frye

    Frye TS Member

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    Hmm, I see some pionter haters here.... here's what I know.
    I have a 3 yr old lab, and a 4 month old shorthaired pointer that is a parvo survivor. I worked my lab daily for months just to get her to sit, stay, come to hand, and hold.
    When she got that down, it was time to teach a retrieve and it was all over at that point. ALL this dog is good for now is fetch and she never gets tired of it. Loves the water and loves to retrieve and has a great nose but she has OCD when it comes to fetch... great companion, worthless in the field. WAY to hyper and the fetch obsession is just a joke.

    My Pointer... Ha, night and day difference! This little guy points and holds on a chucker wing right now. He had sit, stay, whoa, come to hand and hold down in 8 days. He will retrieve on command and he doesn't chew the wing, at all. Insticts??? You bet! He's birdie!! I don't duck hunt so for me the choice is easy, I wanted bird dog for pheasants and that's what I got. One hell of a good pup, and he's a German Shorthaired Pointer. To each his own but for me, I'll take a Shorthair any day.
     
  13. Jawhawker

    Jawhawker TS Member

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    Well as usual ts.com style, a simple add for sale of a couple pups has turned into a lab versus pointer debate! So here I go.LOL

    sarge, I've seen your Delaware and Chesapeake Bay and Iam here to tell you a Dratharr can handle er. Since you discuss the effectiveness of your lab with a wing tipped goose, I'd love to see her with a wing tipped turkey. Yes Iam serious and not doubting your lab, just would love to see her do it and how she'd handle the situation.

    As for shorthairs, I regret what I let one do for me in regards to the conditions I let her work during duck hunts. If a dog has heart you can expect alot from them no matter would breed!
     
  14. Dove Commander

    Dove Commander TS Member

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    Pheasantmaster has obviously seen some Drahts work. My draht has retreived Coon, fox, doves, tracked arrowed deer, and point, held, and retrieveed pheasant and quail,(didn't lose a bird this year) and retrieved ducks and geese. Check out the Drahthaar on the net. Believe me, Ice is just an inconvenience for a drahthaar. They are one of the few breeds with very strict certified breeding and testing. The only downside of this breed is that they are very impressionable at an early age and can be a one man dog. In all breeds there are Great, good, and so-so dogs. Breeding, training, and realizing the strengths of a particuliar dog, make for a good parnership. Had I been more patient when I was younger, I would have had better dogs. The best dog is "my" dog. If you haven't said that, your not a "dog dude".
     
  15. Jawhawker

    Jawhawker TS Member

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    sarge, you've been reading to many mags and how them old boys do the turkey hunting thing in the traditional way. In Kansas dogs aren't allowed during spring season but fall they are. As such, me and my ole boy have found a different way to hunt them. By late fall they are in their winter pattern in various areas of creeks that abound in the area I'm from. I can send him down the creeks and roust them out, ie on the wing. Now you have the scenario for a possible wing tipped bird. Now you can't imagine if those old birds are on the ground to how i've seen them hit including not at all!
     
  16. wolfram

    wolfram Well-Known Member

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    We had an incident with the neighbors big tom cat last night that helped me figure out this pointer Vs Lab thing. As we were driving down the lane to our house after some errands, the big tom cat came running out of our back yard headed home. Both the lab and the GSP saw this and the lab bailed out of the cruiser and went after the cat. Gus the GSP knew better and stayed put. The yellow dog stopped the chase after the second call and came home. About a half hour later I was wondering where Gus was and I went looking for him. Turns out he was on point and having a stare down with the cat about 100 yards up the road. I walked up there and called him off point and got a really disgusted look for blowing the point.

    So thats the difference, one of the breeds is considerably more clever than the other. Both of them want to get the cat even though the cat would probably win a fight. They just go about things differently.

    Pretty fun even in the off season.
     
  17. glenn mcleod

    glenn mcleod Member

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    All good dogs are fun to hunt with, but, I'll take my lab. She gets them up and finds them in sh-- you can't even walk in and I don't have to pick burrs. glenn
     
  18. Bruce Specht

    Bruce Specht Well-Known Member

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    EE, I had a lab that worked a field that two Shorthairs had just worked my lab got the four birds the pointer missed. As stated in an earllier post we all have our preference, if your into stylish points and far ranging dogs then a pointer is your breed. I wnat a dog that hunts and to use your word "finds" I wnat a lab you can have your high strung pointers.
     
  19. Lyle

    Lyle Member

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    Pocatello,
    I didn't know you were a field trialer........cool.
    EE, I think you are somewhat correct on the labs. I would call it being "backyard bred". I have had labs for 27 years and have not trialed them, but always buy from those breeders who do. I think you get what you pay for in both shotguns and in labs. The upfront cost on a dog is the cheap part of the dog, so buy the best you can up front.
    That being said, my lab is every bit as good as any pointer I have hunted with, and truth be told, he was better than all of them.
    I've hunted with drathhar, english pointer (why?) Vizla, Brittany, shorthair and of these the Drathhar (Spelling) is the only one I would consider owning with the shorthair coming next.

    My .02


    Lyle
     
  20. Setterman

    Setterman Well-Known Member

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    Wolfram, On command, the Drahthaar would of dispatched the cat. A tree is the only safe place for feral cat on our property. We have 3, and did not train any of them for vermin, but they all have the natural instinct to do the "fake and dive" routine for the back of the neck. And their not shy about it.
     
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