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Point of Impact (Winston)

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by butcher, Dec 30, 2011.

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  1. butcher

    butcher Member

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    I read and viewed Winston's videos of hits etc. and probably ended up with more questions than answers.Sometimes I read too much and get myself screwed up with all the theories and different data.The one thing that did stick with me out of the whole thing was to have enough velocity in your shells to adequately break the target.
    After reading the thread I went to the trap shoot the next day and I was really making inkballs but still thought my POI was a little high so I lowered the comb 1/32 and it was still inkballing the targets with out crowding the gun.I thoroughly believe that setting your POI like Phil Kiner advises is better for me.(shoot the top off lower the comb, shoot the bottom off raise the comb and when you are inkballing them leave the comb alone).

    I always try to have a good stance, perfect gunmount, good aimpoint according to the targets and not calling for the target until I think I'm ready.Yesterday, I borrowed Harlan Campbell's phrase as per Winston's article and told myself to take the gun to the money side of the target and it helped me. I like reading all of everybody's theories and if they make since go and try them to see if it works for me.There is alot to be said about see the target, shoot the target.

    I got a couple of things that seemed to work for me from the thread as above so it was a good read.

    Thank's Winston for your input and from you other's as well as we all would like to better our scores.

    Charger
     
  2. butcher

    butcher Member

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  3. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    I glad you liked the videos, Charger, but your post raises, as you say, more questions than it answers. When those videos were taken I thought we had a pretty good idea what people thought they were doing when they "read target breaks." But as the threads went on, it was clear that many weren't "reading breaks" at all, they were just watching where the gun was relative to the bird when it went off. Finally it became clear that if you were to find a "pure" target break reader he would not be the shooter himself, but rather the one behind him or on the bench or on TS.com. And even then the claim was hardly any claim at all, just a lot about "watching the shooter's dynamics" and "taking in the totality of the birdbreak experience" or worse, in all, just a bunch of bull.

    That's why we are glad to have you here, so we can get at what, specifically, TBR does. Everyone else flaked out, so we need to start again.

    Definitions are always the place to start. When you wrote

    "shoot the top off lower the comb, shoot the bottom off raise the comb"

    I wonder what, specifically, you mean by "shoot the top off" and "shoot the bottom off." Are we to take that literally? Since, on the average, the "top" of the target might be thought of as an inch above the "bottom" of the target, are you really saying you see where the shot is hitting the target with a resolution of an inch vertically? When the bird is being well it? You can see what part of the bird is hit, what part is left untouched?

    Neil
     
  4. JACK

    JACK Well-Known Member Supporting Vendor

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    Amen, bro
     
  5. John Thompson

    John Thompson TS Member

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    I consider the direction that the majority of the pieces go to be the opposite of the majority of the pattern hitting the target. i.e. pieces go up and to the rear of the direction of travel, you shot under and in front of the bird. Ink spots only tell me I hit the target with a lot of the pattern.
     
  6. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Have you watched the videos, John? They start with the above link and go on through seven or eight chapters.

    What they show is, while your theory seems like common sense, it is completely untrue. All of it. Right/left, up down, totally wrong. The big pieces generally go right because of spin and the front of the target being broken, and the general mass of the targets and pieces go up because that’s where their inertia takes them. That's all. Nothing about where the bulk of the shot was at all. Nothing.

    Neil

    You get the rest of of the videos at

    http://www.mn-trap.org/

    and going down to tech corner, Neil Winston, and the rest of the videos
     
  7. C1

    C1 Member

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    Just a note on my take on reading breaks: A few years ago I was on the practice 27 yard line shooting targets. When this reasonable good shooter stopped me on my way to post five and commented on how well my gun patterned and how well I was centering targets. I thanked him and said "I really hope I get 5 hard rights on 5 because I want to shoot the lead edge off the targets". Well as fate would have it I did get five hard rights and I did break the front half off all of the targets. Now if you think I did that with my skill, you can go to your grave thinking I was the greatest handicap shooter ever just like the club member who watched it happen. My only regret is I never got to shoot off a handicap with him.

    Gary Riecke
     
  8. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Gary, those targets are 40-plus yards away and you can see, when it's flying at its biggest angle, that the front half of the target was broken off? I'm not sure how that looks. So, in detail, can you describe it? What happens, for example, to the rear part which I suppose is not hit? And how do you tell that part from the other part, the part you hit?

    Neil
     
  9. JACK

    JACK Well-Known Member Supporting Vendor

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    I was a skeptic. But once I bought into the program I now channel my modest breaks into trying to center again rather than shooting a bit more left or right or up or down. Life's simpler now.
     
  10. C1

    C1 Member

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    Neil, What it looked like to me was that the target was broken in half and the front half was broken into a bunch of pieces. I know it's an optical illusion because of the target rotation. but we all experience the same thing, shooters all say "I cut that target in half", now both you and I know that the target could have been centered and just one half of the target broke into "pieces" while the other half for whatever reason remained intact. It just was one of those mind things that if you paid attention to would draw your mind away from the task at hand.

    I have seen lots of illusions when it comes to target breaks or misses but one that still baffles me is the one where on a hard angle, lets say post 3 right angle, if I miss and only if I miss I sometimes see a black streak that bends back toward the traphouse. I assume it is my shot string but because my eyes are moving toward the target it appears to be moving in a curve the opposite way.

    I used to fly radio controlled aircraft and I remember once at a demonstration at a ball park flying my plane into a light tower. My eyes were about 20 feet in front of the plane when it stopped and my mind for a second was totally confused that the plane wasn't there. I had to look back on the path to see what happened.

    I also have only one good eye so I'm very easy to fool with optical tricks.

    Gary Riecke
     
  11. jmac_cope

    jmac_cope Active Member

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    After watching Neil's target break videos. I no longer have any confidence that one can "read" these target breaks and draw a definitive conclusion about where the shot cloud has struck the clay target. The only conclusions I can draw from the videos is that the target inertia seems to cause the pieces to continue in the direction they were headed before being struck(upward) and the clockwise rotation of the target tend to throw large piece to the right. Some of the hits show an exception to this but looking at all of them as a whole, this seems to be what happens most often.

    John
     
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