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POI - Yet another question

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by dmarbell, Sep 4, 2007.

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  1. dmarbell

    dmarbell Active Member

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    I found a Super Trap stock for my 390. Installed it today with the shims set to max comb up and cast to the right. It had the highest comb insert in it, so I left it that way. I measured the drop to comb before I changed it out, and it was 1.25" to the slightly built-up moleskin-addition comb. With the new stock, it was only about 7/8". (This was measured with rib upside down and flat on a table top, front bead off the table and no mid bead.)

    Based on 1/16" rise at comb equals 2" higher POI at 32 yards, my 6/16" increase in comb height should translate into 12" higher at 32 yards. I am going to pattern it tomorrow, probably at 16 yards so I can do the calculations and test the theory. I'll report back.

    Based on my understanding, if I started at 50/50 with the gun set up as a field gun, then 12" high at 32 yards should pattern at about 90/10. Does that sound right? Also, is that generally too large an increase in POI to try all at once? The gun has the standard rib, 28" barrel, and I have a full choke ("*").

    Danny
     
  2. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    I'm not questioning your math or the POI theory, I just wonder why you think 12 inches high will be good for you?? My trap guns have fixed ribs and I like to see a little rib instead of flat down the rib but I have serious doubts that I could shoot a gun with a real high POI. Are you basing your POI on what works for you or on what some Top Dawg shooter likes ?
     
  3. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Danny, it often helps to try new things. One problem many of us have is that we think we can test something new simply by shooting 25-50 targets. That never worked well for me. I need to shoot at least 1000 before I can figure out if the change is good or bad. Testing a change in your gun is akin to buying a new gun.

    It is fun to go through the arithmetic and calculate what a change in the stock height will do to the POI, but this exercise is often flawed. The factor that will elevate the POI is not the comb height but rather the height of your eye. You must assume that you will not rotate your head forward (lowers your eye and POI) or rotate your head back (elevates your eye and POI) as you change the comb height.

    Pat Ireland
     
  4. dmarbell

    dmarbell Active Member

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    MikeTMX,

    I have to admit to being a little influenced by what I read on here and in other texts. I don't necessarily think that 12" high POI would be good or bad for me, just not where I started. If the gun was truly at 50/50, then going to 90/10 would probably not be good unless all my misses were under birds. I've been breaking birds solidly with this gun, but my misses follow no pattern. I think it's based on inconsistent mounts. I just wanted to be able to change the comb height to get a comfortable mount that I can make consistently. I can lower this comb considerably, and might do that before I head to the range this morning.

    Pat,

    I realize the wrong comb height has several sets of problems, introduced to me by my skeet instructor. Too low a comb can cause you to roll your eyes to the right, and vice versa. I'm not sure about the head forward or back issue.

    The change I made last night definitely changed my eye height, because the sight picture changed dramatically.

    This brings up another question for you. Once you (think you've) found the best position on the comb for your eyes, based on locking the comb into your zygomatic arch, why can't you do something to fix the spot for consistent mounting during shooting? Would a little strip of moleskin behind this mounting spot work, so that the rear part of the cheek bone could feel the edge of the moleskin as you slide the comb rearward during a good mount?

    Danny
     
  5. maclellan1911

    maclellan1911 TS Member

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    Danny there is no reason you cant mark your mount points. One shooter I have seen has valcro on his forend and stock on grip. then some on his gloves. You do what breaks tarkets. What pat says is right I shot 500 rounds over several pattern/adjustment days. Then when I was happy with what I was seeing. I left it alone and started shooting. For a brief time my scores went down until I adjusted to the change. I was shooting a 870 exspress before the XT im shooting now. I wanted A higher shooting gun, I like seeing the target, with the 870 I would have to pass or block the bird out, very distracting for me. I would go to the pattern board, get to point you would like to try then stay with it, like Pat says 1000 shots or more.
     
  6. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Danny - Your last question changed the discussion to proper gun mount. This is something you should practice a lot at home. In general, the gun mount should be one where you end up looking down the rib with both eyes level (no head tilt). The ideal mount would involve you looking at the area you want the gun set up point to be. Then raise your gun to your cheek without any, of with very little movement of your head. Keep looking at the set up point and then bring your gun up to your head. This takes a bit of practice. A side benefit of mounting your gun a lot at home will be strengthen your arm muscles. Try mounting your gun 10 times at home and see how fatigued your are are.

    Pat Ireland
     
  7. dmarbell

    dmarbell Active Member

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    Pat,

    I did suddenly become concerned with proper mount. I realized that if I change the stock and comb, and thus my POA and POI, and I don't mount consistently, I'll never know whether it really works.

    The reason I'm spending this much effort on this gun is that I have been breaking a lot more birds with it, and the breaks are really solid. I wanted a trap stock to get the comb to parallel, or near it. The adj comb inserts give me the ability to change my eye height. I'll work on a way to get my cheek on the comb in the same spot every time, and practice that.

    The muscle memory issue is not wasted on me. I shot registered 16s and caps with a relatively small group a few weeks ago. Caps followed the singles rather quickly. By the last round of the caps, my dogs were barking and my shoulders and arms were tired.

    Back to my 390. I shoot it better for one reason in that I can mount the gun and see past the barrel. The barrel fades into peripheral vision, and I can actually see around the barrel, and even seem to see the house below it. I can hold it a bit higher than other guns I've shot, and still see the bird quickly. Other trap guns seemed to get in the way, and I was looking down the rib like sighting a rifle.

    Danny
     
  8. Rollin Oswald

    Rollin Oswald Active Member

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    Danny:

    You have received good advice above but I suspect that you may be going at things in the wrong order. Before addressing comb height, the gun mount must be consistent and at the correct height. The mount should place the heel of the stock even with the top of your shoulder or very close to that height.

    The gun should be mounted at this height each and every time you mount it along with the same place, horizontally - in the shoulder pocket. Then your stance should be consistent because the angle of your shoulders relative to where you are shooting will have an effect on how your cheek makes contact with the comm as does the height of the mount.

    With the gun mounted as Pat described, your eyes should be level left to right and your head should be turned very little toward the stock. They should be vertically centered in their sockets, i.e. not at the top of their sockets as they would be if you tilted your head and neck down and forward to place your cheek on the comb.

    I have a haunting suspicion that your neck IS tilted forward and that your gun mount might be a little low, as well. Both of these things can promote inconsistent gun mounts just like variable stances.

    I suggest that you critique your shooting form before doing too much more with comb height. Practicing your gun mount at home as suggested, is boring, tiring and very, very helpful toward a goal of consistency.

    There are enough inconsistencies we can have just in our swings without adding shooting form variations from station to station and shot to shot.

    Rollin
     
  9. dmarbell

    dmarbell Active Member

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    I patterned the gun at 16 yards, with the highest comb combination. It was shooting almost 100% high. I changed the comb insert to the lowest comb, with the shims still set all the way up, and it patterned at about 60/40.

    I didn't get a chance to shoot trap. I did, however, shoot five rounds of skeet with it set up this way, and shot my first 25 ever in skeet. That means, that for me, it points pretty well.

    My plans are to shoot some trap with it set up this way, before I do any more changing. Pat, I'm just not sure I'll shoot 1,000 rounds before I change, but who knows.

    Rollin, I took your advice and practiced the mount some. I then had a skeet instructor look at the fit, with the lower-comb setup, and he thought it looked pretty good. Eyes not too cocked right, butt in the right place on shoulder. He suggested using the thicker pad, as it was just a bit short for me. I will make that change before I shoot any trap.

    Danny
     
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