1. Attention: We have put together a thread with tips and a tutorial video to help with using the new software. Please take a moment to check out the thread here: Trapshooters.com Tutorial & Help Video.
    Dismiss Notice

POI Technical Question?

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by Dickgshot, Mar 8, 2007.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Dickgshot

    Dickgshot Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,614
    If you're a fast shooter you need a higher shooting gun, not flatter. A flatter shooting gun would be for someone who shoots more slowly because the target will be leveling off or even dropping the farther out it travels.
     
  2. Beancounter

    Beancounter TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    482
    I would like to ask the distance you did your POI work from. If you did it from a rest, firing multiple shots at individual aim points and at short yardage (like 13 yards) 4 inches high means you moved the center of the pattern up by nearly a foot at 40 yards. you are getting close to a full pattern high.

    If you shot patterns offhand and at long range and tried to adjust the POI to be a few inches high, you probably did not get it right.

    I like to use POI to know if a gun will shoot straight. How high on a single barrel (like the BT 99 with an adjustable comb) is not terribly critical to me at this time. With a gun like that, I like to stand on post 3 with a locked trap and fool with comb until I get smoke. then I raise it just a tad.

    A doubles gun is a different story.
     
  3. bigben

    bigben Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    559
    Dickgtax is correct, you should be raising the gun if you are a fast shooter not lowering it, go to an unused trap, have the trap locked on straight-aways on post 3, go to the 27 yd.line and keep raising the comb until you are really crushing them, lock the stock there and enjoy shooting better scores at all yardages! incinerate em!
     
  4. Harold

    Harold TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    247
    If you had been used to a flat shooting gun, it might take you a while to get accustomed to the higher POI.
     
  5. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,780
    And all this is beside the point anyway. How fast you shoot plays no role* in where you may want the gun to shoot. What you hit best with is the final judge of what you need. What you want to do with POI testing is find out what the relationship is between where the gun shoots and the score, and that is best done without any theory, instead with just the data which are the outcome of the POI experiment. (edit: when I wrote this I hadn't seen Mike's post and now see he was saying the same thing, except he complicates things for himself so much with all those possibilities that I wonder how he can ever hit anything.)

    Neil

    * all good shooting is essentially automatic. If you are shooting fast, you are issuing the neural command "put the trigger" well before the barrel is where it will be when the gun goes off. For proof, click the above link and play the game. There is a 1/4 second delay between the visual event - here it's where the bird is relative to the iceberg, in shooting it's where the barrel is relative to the target - and the finger response. Of course, when you actually shoot a bird you are not aware of pulling the trigger (as you are here with the penguin game) but the delay is unchanged. There's no reason to think you can't learn to (unconsciously) issue that "pull the trigger" command with (almost) any gun-bird relationship at all.
     
  6. goose2

    goose2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2007
    Messages:
    2,025
    I have contended that we can over think all of this. With all the adjustments on these guns we get carried away with all of this. My 19 year old kid says to heck with all that, just go smoke em. Believe it or not. It works for quite well for him.
     
  7. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,780
    I absolutely believe it, G2. I started with a one of the old Fajen adjustable (6ways+) stocks with an adjustable-rib K-80; now I have solid-rib guns and solid (no adjustment) stocks with, at the most, a little moleskin.

    Neil
     
  8. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,199
    After making sure that your gun has no left right problems, do this from a rest at 13 yards, adjust the vertical POI by using more or less powder in your reloads. This way you can fine tune your POI without having to adjust your comb. The benefit will be that your sight picture will remain the same. HMB
     
  9. Setterman

    Setterman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2007
    Messages:
    10,830
    I don't understand this "13 yard" stuff. What targets are shot at 13 yards? Shoot on paper or splatter board and adjust so gun shoots vertically right on and perhaps 4-6" high at 25 yds w/ a full choke. Set a machine on straightaways. At 16 yards, shoot and adjust the comb w/ shims up or down till your inkspotting targets. Do the same at your handicap yardage and record the differance (if there is one) As you get yardage, repeat the handicap exercise. Be as consistant mounting the gun as possible. Your swing speed and timing must be consistant as well. What happens on hard R's and L's is determined by your ability and consistancy. You'll have to learn your move and sight picture on those targets (Float or cover target). Whatever loads you shoot on 16 yards and handicap should remain constant. This method has been described in Shotgun Sports mag. forever.

    Of course an adjustible comb is required.
     
  10. Super Shooter

    Super Shooter TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    2
    Hey I just shot 100 straight on the pattern board. Should I adjust my stock?
     
  11. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,414
    Location:
    SE PA
    Setterman, the gentleman who popularized the 13 yard POI distance did so for convenience reasons. As it happens, it makes the math easy because you multiply by 3 and you have offset at 40 yards. So if you are shooting 2" high at 13 yards (or 13.33 yds), you are shooting 6" high @ 40 yds. That's a 70/30 shooter described the old way.

    The real reason for shooting for POI at short yardage is you can much more precisely determine the center of your pattern. Geez, the diameter of the hole a full choke with a good load makes is less than 2" across at 13 yds. 14.5 works just fine, as does 16. It's harder to convert to 40 yds, but that's about it. Really, anything between 12 and 20 yards will tell you what you want to know. 13 and 20 make the math easy. At 13 you can more precisely determine the exact center of the pattern, and tell what choke was used. At 20, finding the exact center is not quite as precise, but you begin to get useful pattern distribution information in addition to the POI info.

    Shooting for POI as described above is much more precise than shooting at targets, and much quicker. Then go to the line and determine how the way that gun shoots relates to the bird bead relationship you need to smoke birds.

    The end result is the same, but now you know what you have to do to smoke birds, AND you know precisely where your guns shoots to do that. Now you can make intelligent adjustments to reconcile the sight picture you want to see, with the bird bead relationship you prefer, and compensate for the speed of your move to target. Then go back and shoot for POI again, and record it. If you want to set up a borrowed gun, or a new barrel for yours, all you have to do is go to the pattern board and set the new rig up for the same POI.

    Someone said above, all good shooting is automatic. That is true when you are shooting well. Someone else said, when you are not shooting well on automatic and have to change to consciously pointing or aiming, it behooves you to have the POIs pretty much the same (I'm paraphrasing). That's good advice. On automatic, your subconscious will figure out when you need to pull the trigger, regardless of where the gun shoots, how fast you move and where you take your targets. It still astonishes me. I feel like a spectator and someone else is directing the gun and firing. But when I am having difficulty and resort to pointing or aiming, I really, really have to know where the shot is going to go if I put the bead here, with my gun mount. That's what POI testing does for you. And if you can adjust your gun so that your conscious uses the same aiming point your subconscious does, you have even more goodness, and a higher average.
     
  12. Charles L. Schmidt

    Charles L. Schmidt TS Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2006
    Messages:
    410
    Churchill’s method calls for POI patterning at 16 yards. The math here says two inches of movement at 16yds requires 1/8” at the comb.

    Regarding the comments about there really being no need for all the adjustability. I’d agree, however without all the adjustability the shooter would really need to have the gun custom fit. Off the rack guns require the shooter to adjust the mount of the gun to keep it in the right place for each target. A gun that fits perfectly mounts the exact same every time without the need for twisting or whatever to get it perfect. You can mount it with your eyes closed and when you open them it’s perfect. You can’t get that with an off the rack gun.

    All of my Trapguns have been extremely adjustable. Yet after I’ve gotten them dialed in I never changed a thing. cls
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.