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POI for new shooters - how high?

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by dmarbell, Oct 21, 2007.

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  1. dmarbell

    dmarbell Active Member

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    I started shooting trap early this year. I have about 2,500 total targets or so. My best scores have been with a Beretta 390 with 28" barrel and flat rib. I've tried a couple of guns that patterned high at 13-20 yards without much success.

    Is there a pattern that a new shooter should stick to until some measure of success is achieved? Is that pattern relatively flat?

    As an alternative question, do any really good shooters shoot relatively flat shooting guns? Say no higher than 60/40?

    I'm a pretty slow-paced person, so it's possible I'm shooting targets "late" when they've peaked, and the whole high-shooting pattern deal doesn't work for that style.

    Danny
     
  2. buzzgun

    buzzgun Member

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    Danny,

    Yes, there are good shooters who shoot flat guns. However - do not listen to _anybody_ here who tries to tell you what pattern height to use. If they even _begin_ to offer you advice, over the internet, without knowing you from Adam...they are charlatans.


    And it doesn't matter who it is, or their "qualifications." They're all full of bull. Every single one of them.


    Even as a beginner, you can answer this for yourself, better than anybody.
     
  3. midalake

    midalake Well-Known Member

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    Everyone's eye likes to see something different. There are many things which may determine your POI. One-two eye, rib height, shooter mount, gun.......the list is endless. One really needs to find this for themself. However I will add
    if you really missing targets due to a wrong POI it will take more than a washer to make a chang.

    GS
     
  4. midalake

    midalake Well-Known Member

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    Everyone's eye likes to see something different. There are many things which may determine your POI. One-two eye, rib height, shooter mount, gun.......the list is endless. One really needs to find this for themself. However I will add
    if you really missing targets due to a wrong POI it will take more than a washer to make a chang.

    GS
     
  5. Rollin Oswald

    Rollin Oswald Active Member

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    Danny - It should be relatively simple to determine when you are shooting targets; ask someone. Are they still climbing, leveled off or on their way down?

    Does your gun have an adjustable comb? Do you know how high the gun shoots? Are you looking "along" or down onto the rib slightly?

    Unless you know the POI of your gun, you cannot know the sight picture needed to break targets. A "sight picture" is the position of the muzzle or front bead relative to targets.

    One way to experiment would be to lock a trap to throw straightaways while you're on station 3 and do "what comes naturally" and see how targets break as a starting point. Then, depending on how they break (if your comb is not adjustable) change your sight picture by adjusting the position of the front bead relative to the targets (without glancing back at the barrel.)

    The barrel will be rising when you fire. There will be a slight delay following your decision to fire before the gun actually goes off. The barrel will continue to rise during this delay, which is caused by a "reaction time." However, that doesn't really matter. You will remember only the sight picture when you decided to fire and that is the important thing for the purpose of comparison.

    The sight picture will put the front bead below, even-with or covering the targets. This will be your starting point. Watch the breaks. If the large pieces of targets go down, you may be shooting high. If they go up, you probably shot a little low on that target.

    Shoot several targets before drawing any conclusions. Ask yourself how "natural" the sight picture seemed when you are using it. (When I first started shooting a trap gun, I could not imagine being able to hit anything with a gun that did not shoot flat. Shooting "under" targets seemed unnatural. I wanted to shoot "at" the spot targets would be when the pattern arrived and with a flat shooting gun, that meant I had to cover targets with the barrel to provide the necessary vertical (or forward) lead, (the reason most trap shooters use a high shooting gun.) It is more difficult to shoot targets that you can't see when the barrel is covering them, especially with a tail wind that causes targets to drop.

    I hold the belief that shooters can adjust to moderately high-shooting guns. They must know how far under targets the barrel needs to be to break them, however. That is the basis for my suggestion.

    The only means of judging how high your gun shoots now is to pattern it. Even that may not yield very much useful information, however. The height of the pattern compared to the aiming point represents ONLY the height when your eye is in the same place relative to the rib, when you patterned it. For example, raise your head during swings and the POI will rise. It is the one uncertainty when patterning guns and using the patterning results when shooting moving targets.

    The above would be much easier if your comb is adjustable. If it is not (and I suspect that it is not), other difficulties arise in changing the gun's POI to one you are comfortable with and can build on while you are gaining experience.

    Rollin
     
  6. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Rollin, that's a terrific post. There's nothing left for us to say; you've nailed it.

    Neil
     
  7. Rollin Oswald

    Rollin Oswald Active Member

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    Thank you, Neil. I am always uncertain just how much detail I should write. I could have written another half-dozen paragraphs but apparently it ended where it should have. Thanks again.

    Rollin
     
  8. dmarbell

    dmarbell Active Member

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    Rollin,

    Thanks for the information. I am shooting a 303 with 32" special trap barrel. It has a trap stock with adjustable rib.

    I'm on my way to pattern the gun now and to shoot some straightaway targets. For today, I'm probably on my own.

    I'm going to pattern at 13 yards and also at 35-40, if I can. I'll report back.

    Danny
     
  9. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    The excellent post by Rollin is a short example of what you can get in his book.

    Pat Ireland
     
  10. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    Shooters generally shoot better with a higher impact point rather than lower. In your case, being a slower shooter. you may find that is not true and a flatter shooting gun more suits your style. All this may change after you gain more experience and start breaking targets closer to the house.

    If impact points were an absolute for everyone then many of us wouldn't keep changing them. I once shot an event with the late Frank Little-many times All-American. After breaking the first hundred in the Singles, he came back to the trailer looking for an allen wrench. Between hundreds he re-adjusted his comb and proceeded to break the next hundred.

    I don't think I would try that trick myself!!
     
  11. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    oleolliedawg- Frank could tell with certainty where he was shooting. Some other top shooters can do this but most of us can't.

    I remember that he had the first adjustable comb I ever saw. It was a crude looking thing with large brass rings to raise the comb up and down on his BT 99.

    Pat Ireland
     
  12. hubcap

    hubcap TS Member

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    Set your point of impact so you get smoke with YOUR sight picture and timing.

    hubcap
     
  13. senior smoke

    senior smoke Well-Known Member

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    an older all american shooter once told me how most shooters determined poi years ago. he said take a soda can, place it about 20-25 yds in front of you. shoot at the bottom of the can. if the gun shoots low, you will see the shot hit in the grass in front of the can. if the gun shoots high, you will see the shot hit in the grass over the can. if your gun hits dead on, you will hit the can. he said if the gun hits the can, shoot a round and touch the bottom of the target. if you don''t like the hits, increase the comb by 1/32 of an inch until you smoke the target. now a days you can use a 1/32 washer if you have an adjustable stock, if not, you can place mole skin on the comb, or meadow industries sells a convert a stock pad. he said this sounds crude by today's standards, but he said this method got him on numerous all american teams. it just might be worth a try. what do you have to lose a soda can and a shell?
    steve balistreri
     
  14. dmarbell

    dmarbell Active Member

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    I patterned the 390 yesterday, to which I have added a super trap stock. I also patterned my 303 with trap stock and adj comb. I shot at 13 yards and at 40 yards. I'll try to post pics later. The pictures will come out better when the sun comes up.

    I thought I'd see a much different pattern with these guns, but I did not. That judgement might be altered after I post the pics and get some critique.

    One thing I did notice was the sight picture on the ribs was vastly different. The 390 beads were stacked into a tight figure eight. This gun has the 28" barrel that comes with the gun, and is somewhat of a step-rib, from what I've read. The 303 sight picture had a lot of rib showing between the beads. Assuming my brain likes the "flatter" sight picture, can you fool it by adding a taller mid bead? With the 303 sight picture, there is much more room for error when mounting the gun, as far as developing a consistent mount based on sight and not feel. If you get the sight right every time, the feel will then come, right?

    I guess that is the advantage of an adjustable rib also. If you can point the gun at a target and hit it, you can adjust the rib to get the sight picture you like. Does that sound right?

    Danny
     
  15. Rollin Oswald

    Rollin Oswald Active Member

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    Danny - You wrote, "If you get the sight right every time, the feel will then come, right?" The answer is, yes, sometimes. Shooters can get used to some weird shooting forms. Used long enough, they become "natural".

    To a great extent, shooting form is a product of stock dimensions and how well they fit the shooter. When guns do not fit, the shooting form must compensate.
    When the fit problem is minor, chances are that the flaw in the shooting flaw is also minor and be easily gotten used to. It all depends on the stock dimension(s) that do not fit.

    Your second question is more difficult. The effectiveness of adding a taller front bead depends on how your mind views and processes sight pictures. It may "see" only the rib and ignore the out-of-focus blob that is the taller front bead. Remember: With the visual focus on the target where it should always be, the entire barrel is out of focus. The mind has to decide what part of it should be considered when creating sight pictures, which consist of a straight line from the pupil of the eye to the front of the barrel, to the target. That "front of the barrel" can include the muzzle itself or the front bead. It is why some shooters like fiber optic front beads - because they "can" provide a sharper out-of-focus image representing the end of the barrel.

    Your final question about adjustable ribs is yes, they can be used to develop a figure-8 bead alignment with the desired POI when used with an adjustable comb. They are useful to some and not to others, which depends on why they are being adjusted.

    Listen to what otnot says. The mid bead and the figure-8 fetish have caused many problems. Mid beads are handy for checking gun mounts but not as important as a consistent mount, which sometime comes only with a gun that fits and practice. NEVER underestimate the importance of a consistent mount.

    Also, do not forget that what you see when the gun is mounted is not necessarily the view of the rib at the moment the gun is fired. When forms are incorrect and stocks don't fit, it is common for the eye's position relative the the gun's rib, to change during swings. That cancels or negates all the consideration taken adjusting combs and ribs and can be the result of either ill fitting stock dimensions, a flawed shooting form, or both. It can even be caused by the desire to see target breaks more clearly and raising the head prior to pulling the trigger.

    Simone - You have not found the combination of rib and comb adjustment that causes the gun to shoot flat, which is what you are after. Technically speaking, high rib guns shoot lower than short rib guns because the barrel is farther below the level of the rib. Because of the possible adjustments however, that fact does not come into play.

    Rollin
     
  16. clayman51

    clayman51 Member

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    Danny,

    Be sure that your gun fits you and you are mounting the gun correctly. If you go to the range find an experienced shooter to help you with this. He can see if you are mounting the gun correctly. You may have to make some adjustments, Length of pull,ect... before proper poi can be determinted, this should be a starting point for any new shooter. In coaching Scholastic kids I see this all of the time. Once you get to that point you can then follow Rollins advice above.



    Dennis
     
  17. dmarbell

    dmarbell Active Member

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    Here are my patterns. Front bead at 6 o'clock position on the "bird."
    303 at 13 yards and then at 40 yards. (Four shots at 13 yards might have been one two many.)

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>


    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>

    390 at 13 and 40. (Three at 13.)

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>
    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>


    Danny
     
  18. dmarbell

    dmarbell Active Member

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    I understand that properly stacking beads is no assurance of good shooting. However, any tool you can use in making a proper, consistent mount has to be an advantage. If you could adjust the rib to get closely stacked beads, or even a flat sight plane down the rib, wouldn't that help you in consistently mounting your eye on the correct sight picture? The top of the mid bead touching the bottom of the front bead has to be a little easier to repeat than, say, "some amount of rib showing between the beads."

    Rollin,

    I was asking about a higher mid bead, not front bead. My sight picture on the 303 has a lot of rib showing between the beads. A higher mid bead would make the stacking a little closer, and easier to repeat.

    Danny
     
  19. Phil E

    Phil E TS Member

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    Danny: You've asked thrice about the beads assisting in getting a consistent sight picture. Please re-read what Rollin wrote. During your set-up and while executing your shot, you do not want to be looking at, through, or past those beads. You want to be totally focused on the target. You want to get away from being conscious of the beads at all (except that at the point of releasing the shot your brain is conscious of the front bead relative to the target.) This is why a perfect-fitting gun is so critical, it must put the shot precisely where your eyes are focused. I shot rifles for 40 years before I tried trap, and believe me, this lesson was hard for me to learn, but learn it you must. Think of shooting an arrow at a target. You do not look at the arrowhead. Phil E
     
  20. Rollin Oswald

    Rollin Oswald Active Member

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    Danny/Phil:

    You are correct, Phil but I believe Danny may have been speaking of, what I refer to in the book as the "sight-line" when he referred to the front and mid bead orientation. The sight-line describes the relative position of the beads when the gun is mounted and not when the shot is fired.

    Yes, it is easier to check the mount when the beads are closer together. That fact is a benefit of an adjustable rib. You are correct in your belief that a higher mid bead would place apparent position the two beads closer together and make it easier to check your mounts. The ultimate goal should be to eliminate or at least reduce the need to check your mounts using the beads, to make your mounts consistent through correct gun fit and gun-mounting practice.

    I would suggest that a higher mid bead be as innocuous as possible. The last thing you want is a med bead that draws attention to itself during swings. That of course, holds true for the entire rib, including the front bead. You want a front bead visible enough to allow "back-sighting" but not so bright that it draws your focus off the target and back to the bead itself during swings.

    "Back-sighting" is the term used to describe an acute awareness of the position of the front bead relative to the target during swings without ever focusing on or glancing back to the bead itself. Focus should always on the target. Back-sighting is a learned rather than a natural skill and leads to more precise/accurate shooting.

    Rollin
     
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