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POI Fixed vs Mechanical

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by short shucker, Oct 8, 2009.

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  1. short shucker

    short shucker TS Member

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    A few of us were having a conversation at the gun club the other evening and this topic came up.

    We all shoot different guns, but with very similar stock dimensions. We often shoot each others guns just for fun and to see the difference in firearms. This is really the case when one of us show up with something new. Thank God we all shoot pull triggers.

    I have noticed that each of us shoot guns with a different FIXED POI (POI measured with the gun locked down shooting at a fixed point on the stillboard), but the MECHANICAL POI (POI of said gun when combined with the lock-up time of the trigger {actually shooting the gun}) is nearly the same.

    Has anyone else had to set guns up differently from their norm because of lock-up time, or did you just change your shooting style?

    Because I have never shot a release, I have no idea what effect that has.

    ss
     
  2. PerazziBigBore

    PerazziBigBore TS Member

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    A hot topic of which the shooters reaction time as one of the components.. The answer is..trigger timing combined with different shooters will yield results all over Neil's graph..
     
  3. short shucker

    short shucker TS Member

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    PBB,

    We never considered the reaction time of each shooter. I guess this conversation will continue next week:)

    I don't believe that Neil could even begin to chart this one! At least that anyone of us would be able to understand.

    ss
     
  4. JasonH

    JasonH TS Member

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    I had a friend and long time trapshooter tell me of an experiment between a lujtic with a release trigger and a model 12 with a pull trigger. The study showed that the lujtic had the "shot" out of the barrel before the model 12 trigger mechinism had hit the primer...(I hope someone else knows of this also). If this is true, and a shooter is hitting the target on the rise out of the traphouse, than the fixed poi of those guns with a fast release trigger would be higher than if the same gun had a rather slow pull trigger. I do know of release trigger shooters that change the springs in thier triggers every year to keep the mechinism from slowing down and in turn causing them to possibly shoot under thier targets. I dont know all of the physics of shooting trap, but I know that my fixed poi changed on my trapgun when I switched to a fast release years ago. I hope someone on here can shine some light on this subject, I do like gaining knowledge on these subjects............Good Luck.
     
  5. PerazziBigBore

    PerazziBigBore TS Member

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    Ok.. I miss read your thread.. and yes.. we swap guns at our club too.. just for fun.. The answer lies in the fact that POI and breaking the target has much to do with the shooters sight picture..HOW they see the bird in relationship to the target.. Barrel length can play a huge difference to some shooters..(I'm one of them).. The forend..and where I put my hand has much to do with barrel speed..as well as hold point.. If you are a quick shooter.. these tiny details have more to do with POI.. perception..and target breaks..than the shooter who lets the target out.. and have a very deliberate..controled swing.. The short answer is Yes.. everything matters..and nothing is the same for everyone.. POI if adjusted exactly the same on a fixed target may or may not yield the same results on a moving target.. Release trigger shooters have the same problem with the set and release weights on the first trigger... and then cross over time has much to do with your timing on the second shot.. Doubles..or bunker.. Any brand..any make.. all are from exactly the same to vastly different..
    Precision trigger to Reitz can results in hit or miss.. depending on the shooter..The Reitz is unquestionably faster.. Some..that speed helps.. some it hurts..
    All of this is no more than my observations..and all have the right to argue,disagree..or just flat say I know nothing about triggers..
    All Good.. Mike
     
  6. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    To me, the POI refers to how a gun shoots from a solid rest. It does not refer to how a person shoots the gun.

    Pat Ireland
     
  7. PerazziBigBore

    PerazziBigBore TS Member

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    Pat.. You are absolutely correct.. But I think the question was a grey area question which I understood.. While I use to shoot 4" high at 30 yards.. my coaches gun shot 11" high at 30 yards.. While shooting my regular way yielded very poor scores.. by changing my way of shooting.. resulted in very good scores and solid..centered hits.. I like my way of shooting for me....but I think that was the question.. Not sure..but that's the way I interpertated the question... All Good.. Mike
     
  8. jimrich60

    jimrich60 Member

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    Unlike Pat, I do not think in terms of a "fixed" POI for any shotgun. Rather, the only important "POI" is where a gun shoots for a particular shooter. This I believe is a function of how the shooter holds the gun, what "sight picture" the shooter achieves or uses, how the shooter views the target, etc. For this reason, I never use a bench or other rest to test the POI of my shotguns, but try to hold the gun as I would on the trap field. To illustrate the idea, when I owned/used a BT-99, for me the gun (both on the field and when I patterned for POI) gave about a 50/50 POI. However, the same gun patterned slightly high for a friend of mine when he used it. A third person was invited to use it also, and for him, the pattern was somewhat low. Nothing changed about the gun, only the shooter. Thus, for me, the idea of "fixed POI" is something of a myth and only applies to the sight picture/alignment used by the factory to establish some theoretical POI. Does not mean that you will get the same. Trigger speed will not change the POI for you, only where the target actually is (in relation to where you saw it at the moment you pulled the trigger) the gun goes off. Thus trigger speed might well affect where you hold and the point where you need to "fire". You can, of course, adjust the POI to compensate for such differences if your gun is adjustable. That is the benefit of an adjustable gun.

    Jim R
     
  9. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Jim- You forgot that one of the most important things you can find out about the POI is if the gun shoots to the right or left. The only way I can determine this is shooting from a bench at a target 13 yards away.

    As a favor to me, try it just once from a rest.

    Pat Ireland
     
  10. jimrich60

    jimrich60 Member

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    Pat

    Recently was checking pattern/POI on a Remington 3200 which Briley had just installed their thinwall chokes for me. (non adjustable stock) POI centered left/right ok in my method of testing. Would not this dimension also be affected by how the gun is cheeked, just as POI height? Next time I do a bit of patterning with the 3200, will try the bench method to verify though. Thanks

    Jim R
     
  11. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    The POI will change with different shooters because of the differences measured between the cheek bone and the eye pupil. Higher cheek bone=higher comb, lower comb height for lower cheek boned guys.

    The POI should remain the same whether sitting at a bench or shooting off hand. In that respect, there's no difference in POIs in my rifles with open sights, scopes or shotguns. Hap
     
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