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Please help cure my ignorance!

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Charles.F.Phillips, Oct 29, 2009.

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  1. Charles.F.Phillips

    Charles.F.Phillips TS Member

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    OK, I suppose no one can cure my ignorance, but I do have a couple of questions. I'm primarily a skeet shooter, but I occasionally go over to the bunker field when I think I need of a dose of humiliation. :)

    I've been seeing lots of references to unsingles and I've seen interchangeable barrel sets, i.e. an O/U set to go with an unsingle.

    1. What does the unsingle do for the shooter that a regular single barreled gun can't do?

    2. Does not the O/U barrel set weigh more than the unsingle, or is the unsingle weighted to match the swing of the O/U? It seems to me that if they swing differently,it would work against the shooter that switched to the O/U for doubles.

    3. Even if the unsingle swings the same, why not just use an O/U for both singles and doubles? If you answered the above two questions, you've probably already answered this one, but I wanted to be sure to ask this one explicitly.

    I'm sure I'll have many more questions, but these will be a good start.


    R/s,<br />
    Charlie

    "What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms."<br />
    ---Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, Dec. 20, 1787, in Papers of Jefferson, ed. Boyd et al.
     
  2. AveragEd

    AveragEd Well-Known Member

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    My opinions:

    1)Unsingles often have adjustable ribs while top singles often do not. Also, unsingles are perceived to have less felt recoil and offer a better view of the target emerging from the trap house for two-eyed shooters.

    2)The barrels of most combos weigh very close to the same - often within a couple of ounces.

    3)Single barrels in 34" length offer a longer sighting plane and smoother swing qualities. O/U barrels that long can be cumbersome for many people.

    Ed
     
  3. chipking

    chipking TS Member

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    Charles There are some of us who for whatever reason cannot seem to shoot consistent scores with an unsingle barrel. I happen to be one of those. I am waiting to have a top single barrel fitted to my CG so I can shoot singles with it. For now I shoot my 32" O/U CG for the entire shoot. 16yard from the bottom barrel, handicaps from the top barrel and doubles bottom to top. Or my Ljutic single barrel for singles and my CG for doubles.

    On every combo that I have owned the weight of the single barrel whether topsingle or unsingle has been very close to the weight of the O/U barrel so there was no change in balance.

    There is no reason at all that you could not shoot an O/U for everything in fact at least one of the best ATA Trap shooters in the world does just that. The big factor to me seems to be style and POI. Some shooters shoot very differently in singles and doubles so a single gun would require a lot of adjustments between stages which provides many chances to foul up.

    --- Chip King ---
     
  4. jhoward

    jhoward Member

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    One other difference between un(under)singles and top singles is the effect of heat waves on your vision. Particularly in the summer a top single with a low rib can put off a lot of heat mirage that can affect the way you see a target. The unsingle, with it's higher rib, generally puts the barrel and accompanying heat waves beneath your line of sight.

    Of course, this can also be accomplished by using the bottom barrel of an O/U.
     
  5. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Charles.F.Phillips I think the big difference for me is phycological. I shoot a unsingle for singles and handicap. The gun doesn't have an adjustable rib it does however have an adjustable stock.

    I can't tell you whether the gun swings different with the O/U barrel on it or not as I have only shot the O/U barrels for singles once. I haven't wanted to shoot it for other than doubles since because(and I can't give you a reason why)it just doesn't feel right when shooting for singles. Doubles to me is a totally different game and has a different mind set and attitude. So how the gun feel relates to the difference in singles and doubles I can't answer. I will say my thought on this have evolved over time they weren't instantly obvious.

    Your third question I can only answer one way confidence. I am not confident shooting the O/U barrels for singles or handicap.

    As I said in the beginning for me it phycological. Chip said something I found interesting about unsingles.

    "There are some of us who for whatever reason cannot seem to shoot consistent scores with an unsingle barrel. I happen to be one of those. I am waiting to have a top single barrel fitted to my CG so I can shoot singles with it. For now I shoot my 32" O/U CG for the entire shoot. 16yard from the bottom barrel, handicaps from the top barrel and doubles bottom to top. Or my Ljutic single barrel for singles and my CG for doubles"

    He says he shoot the bottom barrel of the O/U for singles. Not a meant to be a bad statement about Chip or his slant on the unsingle. They are in effect the same animal the barrels are both bottom barrels. In a mono-bloc that fit the same frame. Phycological

    Bob Lawless
     
  6. chipking

    chipking TS Member

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    Bob you are 100% right it is either all in my head or some how I reference the end of the barrel subconsciously when I shoot. It can't be canting (HUMM say that 3 times fast)or I would be having the same issues with the bottom barrel of my O/U. I have had the same issue with a K-80 unsingle and a Kolar that I shot great with the top single (avg 95+) and inconsistently with the unsingle (25 and 19 in the same 100 bird shoot) and with the Caesar Guerini so I can't say why I just know for me the unsingle is not the best choice.

    OR

    Maybe being a true trapshooter it is just another excuse for me to buy something new ;0)

    --- Chip King ---
     
  7. zarathrusta

    zarathrusta TS Member

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    If your objective is curing ignorance this is the last place you should be.
     
  8. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Chip I believe that the last reason(the maybe part)might be more the case than most of us care to admit.

    The funny part is that I to shoot off the end of the barrel. Somewhere in all the shooting even though I don't see the beads the rib has replaced the barrel. I also have found that without having to think about canting. I automatically compensate with my peripheral vision by turning the gun appropriately. I can't explain it I just do it.

    There are so many mental aspects of the game if you spent time actually thinking how to handle them on the line it would take minutes to call for a target after mounting the gun.

    Bob Lawless
     
  9. Charles.F.Phillips

    Charles.F.Phillips TS Member

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    zarathrusta,

    I appreciate the sarcasm, but the truth is that I've learned a lot from the people here (Thanks, guys!).

    R/s,<br />
    Charlie
     
  10. zarathrusta

    zarathrusta TS Member

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    To be honest - I have too. And, the info you have received so far on this thread is right on.
     
  11. Charles.F.Phillips

    Charles.F.Phillips TS Member

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    Ed, Bob & Chip,

    First, I need to make a correction. When I said that I'm primarily a skeet shooter, I meant that's my primary smokeless game. First and foremost, I'm actually a black powder shooter (flintlock era) and I shoot rifles, muskets, artillery and just since August, blunderbuss. As far as I am concerned, percussion caps are just a passing fad! :) If there is any way I can help you in those disciplines, you have but to ask.

    I really appreciate your comments because I'm learning a lot. I know that I can find the rulebook online, but are there any books or videos that you would recommend for learning the finer points of trapshooting?

    R/s,<br />
    Charlie
     
  12. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Charlie there are many good Videos by many exceptional shooters. Like Phil Kiner, Kay Ohye, and I always liked Frank Little. Books there was one that I got a lot out of called Finding the Extra Target by John Linn. I know there are more but this is the one that I got the most from.

    If you only shoot bunker trap most of the information in the trap shooting tapes is geared at American trap. I won't say all but most.

    As far as black powder is concerned many years ago I got involved with percussion cap 50 Cal. round ball matches. It didn't last that long as I just couldn't do everything I wanted to do so it went by the wayside. In favor of Archery, Pistol, and Trap.

    As much as I hate to admit it I could never find the time or money to do everything I wanted to do so I had to make choices.

    Charley just out of curiosity how many gauges to you shoot at Skeet? If more than one how many guns do you use? Like one with gauge tube or more than one gun?

    Bob Lawless
     
  13. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    It's ironic that one of the reasons cited for the popularity of unsingles is that they have less felt recoil due to the barrel having a low center of axis. Yet this same feature in a semi-auto rifle means it is politically incorrect and evil.
     
  14. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Brian in Oregon isn't that the same type thinking as putting the magazine in front of the trigger?

    This of course made a large majority of Match Grade semi auto pistols illegal.

    Bob Lawless
     
  15. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Chip mentioned that he shoots inconsistent scores with an un-single barrel. I can shoot inconsistent scores with any barrel configuration.

    Pat Ireland
     
  16. Charles.F.Phillips

    Charles.F.Phillips TS Member

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    Bob,

    Ahhh... Choices... I know exactly what you mean!

    I shoot a Ruger Red Label in 12 gauge and a cheapie Stoeger SxS in .410 bore. I have a Sizemaster for each gauge - it's slow, but does a nice job.

    R/s,<br />
    Charlie
     
  17. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Charley with that being said. Don't most of the guy that shoot multiple gauges have a Gun that is tubed or an older 4 barrel set. From what I have seen many of the shooters that have these gun don't shoot all gauges but mostly one or two

    Again this is just from curiosity but you asked.

    "why not just use an O/U for both singles and doubles?"

    Now that is a good question but it is kind of like ask you. Why do you shoot two different guns for the same game?

    I think some of the single/unsingle versus O/U for trap has another reason. I think a lot of shooters also feel it is easier to carry and clean one gun instead of two. So they get a combo gun. To justify having the combo in there own mind they shoot both barrels instead of just one.

    I also think some may remember the days when if you loaded the gun and called for the target. You pull the trigger and the gun doesn't go off when you opened the gun the primer wasn't struck it was a lost target. By shooting a single UN or otherwise you couldn't put the shell in the wrong barrel and end up with a lost target.

    Many different reason prompt different people to use different barrels for different reasons.

    Bob Lawless
     
  18. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    I was taught that the terms "ignorant" or "Ignorance" were never to be considered pejorative. All it means is that you are not aware or never been exposed to a specific piece of information.

    Somewhere along the line it became an insult to ones intelligence. Wish it wasn't so, it's a good descriptive word.
     
  19. Rvator97

    Rvator97 TS Member

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    Barry, I think the term ignorant comes from the word ignore.... therefore if someone is "ignorant", it means that they have "ignored" the information that they have been exposed to.

    jhoward: How do you think Leo Harrison, David Kelly, Sean Hawley, and Dan Bonillas, (to name a few of the greats who shoot top singles), overcame the dreaded "heat waves" problem? Walt
     
  20. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Ignorant means lacking knowledge, education or experience. Most of us are ignorant in several areas of study. Dumb refers to being ignorant about certain topics but not recognizing our limitations and speaking about these topics as if we understood them. I have a wealth of ignorance and I have been, at times, known to be dumb.

    Pat Ireland
     
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