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Playing the money - an example

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Pocatello, Aug 25, 2010.

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  1. Pocatello

    Pocatello Active Member

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    From time to time there is discussion on this board about “playing the money”, with fond recollections of how much was available to win in the old days, but very little data. I started shooting ATA targets in the late ‘70s, mainly in SW Michigan and northern Indiana. My (sometimes-faulty) memory tells me that most of those shoots were small, with no options and no trophies to speak of. However the larger shoots at Mason and Vandalia did have options and trophies, and some serious money could be made in the 50s, purses, and Ford purses. I moved in 1984 to Idaho, and immediately noticed that the ordinary shoots were larger and had options and nice trophies. They also had calcuttas with significant money to be made. It was a change for me, to say the least.

    In fairness I must mention that over the years and regions one truth remains – except for added money, options in usually equal options out. That is, any money won by one shooter is money lost by other shooters. There is no free lunch.

    The following data is just an example to stimulate discussion. I would be interested in seeing data from other shoots if anyone would care to provide some. The shoot is the 2010 Pocatello Gun Shoot. The Gun Shoot is held each August and is one of the larger shoots in the region, not quite reaching the level needed to qualify for All-America points. It might reach that level if it were not competing against the Grand each year, but the Club has decided for various reasons to maintain the calendar. For many years the shoot has consisted of ten events with 1100 targets total – 400 singles, 200 doubles, and 500 handicap spread over four days. On each 100 targets a Weatherby rifle is given as a trophy based on a draw score. There are also seven Ruger rifles given as trophies on the last two handicaps. Because of the draw rifles, we get many shooters who do not attend our other ATA shoots. Indeed for some it is the only ATA shoot they attend all year long. It is interesting to note that the economy’s troubles seem to have had an impact on this year’s shoot. We were down from last year in targets thrown, 125,000 compared to 150,200, and in options in, $23,716 versus $34,715. Notice that the decline in targets is 17%, while the decline in options played is 32%.

    It is always something of a guessing game trying to decide what options to include in the shoot. Some shooters complain about the cost of the options, while others complain that they don’t win enough when they do win. Class options have not proven to be very popular for us in singles and doubles; neither has a Miller Purse. Last year there were complaints from some that we raised the entry for the Lewis purses too high, and others complained that we only paid three classes-one place. For this year we decided to go with Lewis purses only on singles and doubles, paid four classes-one place. For all handicaps we had a high gun purse, paid one in five, cost $10, 25 options, one place, $10, 50 options (first/middle/last), 60%-40%, $15, perpetual purses, $18, and a Lewis Purse, four classes, one money, $20. The final handicap also had a “special event”, paid one in seven, high gun, 30% shooter, 70% buyer.

    Finally the data:

    Event 1: 100 singles, 99 shooters.38 played the Lewis (38%). 9 of those made money (24% of those entered), with the median payment $38, and average payment $84.44. For those of you who don’t remember much statistics, the median is the amount where half of those paid made more, half made less. The high score of the event was 100, while the draw score for the gun was 82.

    Event 2: 100 handicap, 101 shooters. 17 entered the purse (17%). 5 of those made money (29% of those who played), with the median payment $21.25, and average payment $34.

    11 entered the 25 options (11%). 4 got paid (36% of those who played), with median $32.09, average $27.50.

    13 entered the 50 options (13%), 9 got paid (69%), with median $15.17, average $21.67.

    27 entered the perpetuals (27%), 2 got paid (7%), with median and average payment $200.

    54 entered the Lewis Purse (53%), 15 got paid (28%), with median payment $54, average $72.

    The high score was 96, and the draw score was 84.

    Event 3: 100 doubles, 89 shooters. 43 entered the Lewis (48%), 9 got paid (21%), with median $107.50, average $95.56. The high score was 99, the draw score 89.

    Event 4: 100 doubles, 92 shooters. 45 entered the Lewis (49%), 19 got paid (42%), with median $37.50, average $47.37. The high score was 98, draw score 78.

    Event 5: 100 singles, 112 shooters. 47 entered the Lewis (42%), 17 got paid (36%), with median $19.58, average $55.29. Notice that more than half the “winners” got paid less than their cost to enter. The high score was 100, draw score 95.

    Event 6: 100 handicap, 118 shooters. 16 entered the purse (14%), and 3 got paid (19%), with median $48, average $53.33.

    11 entered the 25 options (9%). 6 got paid (55%), with median $16.05, average $18.34.

    14 entered the 50 options (12%), 11 got paid (79%), with median $18.90, average $19.09.

    26 entered the perpetuals (22%), 1 got paid (4%), $240.50.

    67 entered the Lewis Purse (57%), 17 got paid (25%), with median payment $47.86, average $59.12.

    The high score was 98, and the draw score was 87.

    Event 7: 200 singles, 158 shooters. The Lewis entry was $40, split $20 on each 100 targets. 55 entered (41%), 30 got paid (55%), with median $45.83, mean $73.34. The high score was 198, draw score 1st half was 76, draw score 2nd half was 79.

    Event 8: 100 handicap, 127 shooters. 24 entered the purse (19%), and 5 got paid (21%), with median $54, average $48.

    17 entered the 25 options (13%). 7 got paid (41%), with median $29.75, average $24.29.

    16 entered the 50 options (13%), 8 got paid (50%), with median $16, average $30.

    26 entered the perpetuals (20%), 1 got paid (4%), $279.50.

    70 entered the Lewis Purse (55%), 16 got paid (23%), with median payment $70, average $87.50.

    The high score was 99, and the draw score was 82.

    Event 9: 100 handicap, 124 shooters. 22 entered the purse (18%), and 7 got paid (32%), with median $33, average $31.43.

    16 entered the 25 options (13%). 5 got paid (31%), with median $40, average $32.

    17 entered the 50 options (14%), 9 got paid (53%), with median $25.50, average $56.67.

    27 entered the perpetuals (22%), 1 got paid (4%), $178.75.

    71 entered the Lewis Purse (57%), 21 got paid (30%), with median payment $50.71, average $67.62.

    The high score was 98, and the draw score was 78.

    Event 10: 100 handicap, 124 shooters. 26 entered the purse (21%), and 7 got paid (27%), with median $39, average $37.14.

    20 entered the 25 options (16%). 6 got paid (30%), with median $33.34, average $33.34.

    20 entered the 50 options (16%), 4 got paid (20%), with median $91.67, average $75.

    26 entered the perpetuals (21%), 1 got paid (4%), $359.

    72 entered the Lewis Purse (55%), with an entry fee of $40 for this event only. 19 got paid (26%), with median payment $102.86, average $151.58.

    56 entered the “special event”, with entry fee $25. 10 got paid (18%), with median $99.87, average $136.80.

    I don’t have data handy on the total number of buyers, but the bid total was $3160 (versus $1400 in entries, i.e. 31% entries, 69% bids). 7 bidders got paid, with median $466.03, average $456.

    The high score was 97, and the draw score was 76.

    Conclusions? I’ll state mine later, if anyone cares.
     
  2. Rich219

    Rich219 Active Member

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    I'm willing to put money on it that 95% or more of the people that click on this thread will never completely read the first post. Any takers?
     
  3. mixer

    mixer Well-Known Member

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    Nope, my eyes glazed over when I got to the data breakdown.

    Eric
     
  4. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    Can you put it in graph form?
     
  5. shannon391

    shannon391 Active Member

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    I love your Vulcan mind.
     
  6. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Pocatello- I read the entire post twice. I believe the interesting numbers are trying to tell me something. But, I don't hear them clearly. I will read the post again in a few hours.

    Pat Ireland
     
  7. ric3677

    ric3677 Well-Known Member

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    Does anyone else feel that they shoot just a bit too good to play the Lewis in any or all of the events? Not quite the top score, (altho sometimes you tie for top and that makes the payout less than some of the lower classes) but not into the 2nd pay?

    Rick in Mt.
     
  8. dverna

    dverna Active Member

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    Playing the options is a crap shoot unless your are capable of winning the event.

    There are more losers than winners (as it must be). And some "winners" will not get back their entry costs.

    Or is this too simple minded?

    Don Verna
     
  9. spitter

    spitter Well-Known Member TS Supporters

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    Craps has better odds for the average gambler... just tell me the point and give me odds on the 6/8...

    regards all,

    Jay
     
  10. cubancigar2000

    cubancigar2000 Well-Known Member

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    Larry, Until I read your post I forgot you lived back where I grew up. We will have to talk sometime
     
  11. OldGoat

    OldGoat Well-Known Member

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    Don Verna has it absolutely, positively right...and not simple-minded at all! The "winnings" are frequently so small as to be laughable compared to the entry costs...for example, betting $5 to...(maybe)...have a 25% chance to win $6 or a little more is a joke. Going to the "boats" to gamble with casinos who tell you up front that the odds are in favor of the house is not my idea of "entertainment". That is NOT to be critical...hey, if someone wants to play the options and enjoys it, I say Go For It. I've got money I haven't spent yet, too. Enjoy shooting however you choose. Best Regards, Ed
     
  12. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    cubancigar2000- I did not know that you did grow up. Congratulations. I may do that some day. But now, I am just growing old.

    Pat Ireland
     
  13. Joe Smoke

    Joe Smoke Member

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    I appreciate the work put in the statistics here. Something I should have been keeping track of while shooting, is the money spent on options and the money won on options (just started the last 4 years). A couple good payoffs hooks you in, then seems like I gave it all back + some, and if I did shoot a good score of late, tried to save a little $ and didn't play the right options. So I play it the next time out and miss out. The odds don't look to be in my favor.

    I think I would be better off taking the money I spend on options, put it into an envelope, and use it for more shooting. If I ever get to where I can compete for the top prize regularly, that's a different story.
     
  14. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    I still fondly remember the story from one guy who had a little chat with the cashier before the shoot and gave the cashier a check for $200. After the shoot was over another check for $200 from the gun club was mailed to the shooter and his wife said "Gee Honey, this is wonderful, you can go to all the Trapshoots you want to go to".
     
  15. smsnyder

    smsnyder Well-Known Member

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    What are the odds in each purse and the average score it takes it win it to come out ahead would be easier. What purse tends to pay the best money if you shoot well?
     
  16. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    POCATELLO I read the post and read the results, what I feel is this.

    If Lewis class was 2 classes or 3 classes depends on number of shooters and each class paid 50/30/20 there would be 6 or 9 scores paid,=more shooters playing that option.

    25s should be 60/40 = more players

    50s should be 50/30/20 on each of the 3-50s

    I remember in the late 60s and 70s of winning enough money from the lewis class and 25s and 50s that I paid my entry or close to it. and I registered targets for almost next to nothing.

    You want more shooters to join the ATA spread the wealth amongst the shooters that support the ATA, not MILK them for what the top shooters can get.

    The changes in options from the 60s and 70s when membership was up is directly related to the decline in the 90s and 2000s.

    The above average shooters are wanting more of the CAKE.

    Missouri Fall Handicap plays the 50s on the 16 yds, lots of entries, you have 4 or more chances to win money.

    Another thing I like is the 200 singles are played over 2 days and allows a handicap on those days and this boosts attendance.

    I have been suggesting this for years only to have it fall on DEAF EARS.


    What do average shooters feel about this?

    I want all shoots to grow and memberships to increase, new shooters, and not have their wallets RAPED.

    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  17. scooterbum

    scooterbum Active Member

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    Gary,

    You have sound ideas. I especially like this one;

    "Another thing I like is the 200 singles are played over 2 days and allows a handicap on those days and this boosts attendance."

    I skip some shoots that don't promote hdcp in an equitable fashion. Singles shooters can leave a shoot one or two days in advance of hdcpers.

    That, and 200 bird singles days might find the hdcpers shooting/shooting off late.
     
  18. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    smsnyder- For a typical shooter, if they must play options, it is my opinion that the class purses and yardage group purses would be the best to play. High gun purses are the worst and the Lewis is a close second to the worst. Note- 25 and 50 options are high gun purses and the Lewis is usually a 1/3 high gun purse. The purse that I think is the most fun for the shooters (not the cashiers) is the Grasshopper Purse but I have not seen it offered for about 25 years.

    Pat Ireland
     
  19. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    PAT IRELAND- the 25s gives a shooter 8 chances at getting some money.

    The 50s gives him 9 chances to hit some money,

    Either one when your hot for a few you are hot, but the odds are good here.

    Any High Gun Purse is only for the big dogs.

    I knew a college professor that would play the 25s and 50s run a 75 then break a score in the hi 80s and low 90s this went on for a long time.

    And he was a 20 yard shooter. He was finally taken to task by the CHC and moved back.

    Gary Bryant
     
  20. maltzahn

    maltzahn Active Member

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    I usually play all the money when there is a chance to get back more than the entry. I like Pocatello's program and would choose thier shoot over others just based on how the club splits winning numbers at any entry fee price. Consider options from the frame of mind that I will have a good day. If not, it would be my failure. It should never be the clubs approach to paying options. There is little variance in the way traditional options are played and payed. Only confused by listening to complainers. Most of which will not play the options anyway or win some inventive approach to what has been accepted in the game. A non-conventional format can upset those that do play the money on a regular basis.

    We should stop worrying about those that can't accept the trap game as it has developed over decades. They can play sporting or skeet and see what happens to redesigned options. There is the answer.

    There are honor shooters and money shooters, few inbetween. A gun club wants a program that offers something for both mentalities. Not try to find some varied approach to pleasing everyone. Its impossible.

    Maltzie
     
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