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pieced primer

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by SMITH47, Nov 30, 2008.

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  1. SMITH47

    SMITH47 Member

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    i get about 1 or 2 pierced primers per 100

    mx8

    using cheddites, mec jr, sts hulls

    is there any serious harm to the firing pin ?

    thanks, ernie
     
  2. SMITH47

    SMITH47 Member

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    shooting coach

    i need a second opinion ???

    ernie
     
  3. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    I have long used Cheddite and Rio primers. They do pierce, and do blow carbon into the gun.

    I service firearms quite a bit. It seems some guns get a little hickey on the firing pins regardless of the brand of primer.

    Remember, the firing pin is a punch. It strikes metal, and the lower pin does this at an angle. Browning pins are softer than other brands, but are cheap and easy to replace.

    A little ding on the firing pin is not going to cause problems. As far as gun damage, one is not going to get it from a pierced primer. Personal injury? Not a chance.

    Often, when you start getting misfires, you will have goop in the gun. Cleaning the firearm and firing pin channels will generally solve the problem. Brake cleaner and compressed air do a good job.

    BTW, Cheddite primers are often used by Remington in their Field loads. This should say how much they think of the Cheddite.

    Much of the world's shotshell ammo is primed with the Cheddite and UEE, which are about the same. UEE in Spain is the world's largest shotshell maker. They don't sell junk. Their Kemen ammo is used in Olympic competition.
     
  4. Gary Waalkes

    Gary Waalkes Well-Known Member

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    When it happens in a rifle or pistol - piercing primers is an indication of serious overpressure. I suspect the same thing is true with shotguns. So if it were me, I would not worry about the firing pin but would be looking for better load data.
     
  5. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    I would not claim that UEE sells junk, but I do claim that their shells are not as consistent as Federal, Rem. or Winchester. I am convinced that at least in the one batch of shells, they loaded exactly the same stuff in the shells but labeled half of them at 1150 ft/sec and the other half at 1200 ft/sec. If a company is manufacturing discount shells, they have to figure out a way to cut prices. Shell manufacturing is automated and requires almost no labor.

    Pat Ireland
     
  6. SMITH47

    SMITH47 Member

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    shooting coach

    i am not confident in how to remove the firing pins for cleaning the channels ?

    i live in florida so maybe i should just go to the southern grand and get you or giacomo to clean & lube for me ?

    i have used a scale and my loads are light. and it happens with two guns and two gauges so it seems to point to the primer ?
     
  7. alfermann66

    alfermann66 Member

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    ernie, i have 8 trap guns of various models and have loaded and fired over 200,000 Cheddite primers in them with no punctures. some other fellows have claimed to have the same problem you're having. my best advice is change primers or change guns.

    Buz
     
  8. Andy44

    Andy44 Active Member

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    I've shot several thousand rounds with Cheddite primers and only recall maybe 2 or 3 pierced; and that is with 7 different guns. Winchester primers have given me the most problems, so paying more doesn't always get you more. Just simply try changing primers to anything else and see if your problem goes away.

    AndyH

    BTW, I'll take all of the Cheddites you don't use. Make me an offer!
     
  9. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    The domestic primers are MUCH more expensive than Cheddite or Rio primers. If I shoot 50K rounds, I save $340 using Cheddites or Rios over the domestics. This more than pays for a major service, even on a K-80. I am NOT going to pay $150 and up for domestic primers! If I did, I would use the Fed 209A.

    The firing pins are easily serviced on your Browning. Call around to a few gun shops and get some prices. You should not pay more than $35 or so for a cleaning. Your gun club Manager might steer you to a good gunsmith.

    One of my (many) shortcomings is failing to remember that not everyone works on their own guns, or has for over 50 years, like I have. LOL
     
  10. Gary Waalkes

    Gary Waalkes Well-Known Member

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    Clearly something is very very wrong if a shooter is seeing pierced primers on either factory or reloaded ammunition. I shoot thousands and thousands of shells every year - many of them are reloads and this NEVER happens to me. If it did, I would stop shooting those shells until I figured out the root cause for what went wrong.

    I disagree with shooting coach on the comment of "no chance of personal injury". When a primer is pierced, lots of hot gas is looking for a place to go. This hot gas is within an inch of your trigger finger and just a few inches from your face/eyes. It was acknowleged that the hot gas will damage a steel pin so why in the world would a person continue down that path? Ever see the photos on the internet of wheel gun shooters who had fingertips that were disintegrated by hot gas that slips the gap between the cylinder face and the forcing cone?
     
  11. RaptorOne

    RaptorOne TS Member

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    I shoot an average of 13,000 targets a year, using factory as well as, reloaded ammo. Some have been reloaded with Cheddite Primers. I have NEVER had a pierced primer. I service shotguns, and do not believe that pierced primers are normal or should be tolerated.

    The most common cause for a pierced primer in a shotgun is excessive firing pin protrusion. There are two measurements. The first is firing pin protrusion at rest - that is with the hammer down - and is usually about .030 - .035" for most shotguns. Then there is the intertial protrusion, this is the protrusion with the firing pin in it's most forward position - and requires being physically depressed into that position. This measurement is usually about .065 - .075" Perazzi is an exception. Of the Perazzi's I've serviced their firing pins are totally inertial - so there is no protrusion with the hammer down and at rest.

    Pierced primers usually result from excessive protrusion with the hammer down and at rest. I suppose it could also happen with excessive inertial protrusion - but I've never seen this.

    A pierced primer can also be caused by a rough firing pin surface with creates a stress riser when the hat is struck.
     
  12. Mike Hessong* (MH*)

    Mike Hessong* (MH*) Active Member

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    I know this thread was started a while ago, but there have been a few recent responses, so I thought I would add my $0.02 worth. I shoot a Krieghoff K-80 about 20,000+ thousand shells a year at all games. A few years ago, I thought I would try to save some money over the standard Winchester I typically used to use, and buy some Cheddites. Out of the first 500 I purchased, I had about 4 or 5 pierced. I looked very closesly under a powerful magnifying glass (after cleaning off the black soot mark that indicates piercing) and found not a hole, but a very small crack. This crack allow a poerful reverse-firing arc type flash that partially erodes around the point of your firing pin. It only begins to escalate from there.

    I decided to give Cheddites another try a few years later and have WAY too many piercing. It eventually got to the point that as the firing pin eroded, they became more prevalent and I had to eventually replace the firing pins and from that time on, I would never shoot another Cheddite. I know people with various guns have never had a piercing problem, but when I first heard of some problems, it was with Brownings and their firing pins must be softer than some other brand guns, but for a while 6 or 7 years ago, there was talk all over about replacing large amounts of Browning firing pins.

    Between the 2 different times I tried Cheddites, they changed the color (on the top of them that goes inside the shell) and I can't remember which color was the worst of the two. One group was red and the other one was black. Both were bad in book. I don't think my firing pin protrusion on my K-80 is significantly longer enough to make the piercing problem worse. I didn't have a problem during this same time and this same gun with either Winchester, Remington of Federal primers. Somone thought that maybe the covering of the primer (the part that was pierced) might be more "brittle" and this allow for this small crack. I couldn't tell by shooting or the sound, but when opening the gun, you could see right away by the circular dot of soot in the center of the primer.

    I would like to save more over the name-brand primers (Winchester, Remington or Federal), but after the 2 bricks of Cheddites, I will never shoot another one of them thru my guns. I did even try some Fiochhi's and didn't have any problems, but my decision is now to probably just stay with what I call the big 3.

    Just one persons opinion.

    Mike Hessong* (MH*)
    Victoria (Texas) Skeet and Trap Club
     
  13. claycruncher

    claycruncher TS Member

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    I have been shooting for about 7 years and when I first started shooting I reloaded using Cheddites. I loaded more than 50,000 shells and never had a problem. About 2 1/2 to 3 years ago I started to experience both piercing and primers that took 2 strikes to make the primer go off. I shoot a K-80 (I have had the same problem with 4 different K-80s) and I sent my gun to Ottsville for inspection. They checked all the firing pin specifications, hammers, springs etc. and told me everything was in spec.

    I have theorized that a few years ago Cheddite may have mad a change in the material they use to make the primer cap. I theorize that there is variations in the thickness of this material that allow for the occasional piercing (thin) and for the more frequent occurrence of the primer not igniting on the first strike (thick). These primers have always gone off on the second strike.

    I don't know what is unique about the K-80 but this issue seems to be prevalent with the K-80. I have switched to the more expensive primers, Winchester and Remington, and don't experience the problem any longer.
     
  14. michshooter

    michshooter TS Member

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    I recently purchased a nice KS-5 and I have noticed that I have been getting an occasional pierced primer with my reloads using Fiocchi primers. I thought this might be a combination of the cold weather and possibly “soft” metal on the Fiocchi primers. Last Sunday, I had a couple of pierced primers at the Monroe Travel League shoot at Maybee while shooting factory Winchester AA shells. After reading RaptorOne’s post about firing pin protrusion, I measure the at rest firing pin protrusion on my KS-5 and found it was about .055”. Now I am wondering if that may be the cause of the problem as I am not have any problem with my other guns.

    ….Paul
     
  15. Baber

    Baber TS Member

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    This is nothing new. Had the problem about 10 years ago when I was using a lit of Cheddite Hulled factory hulls. Stopped using Cheddite primers and the problem went away. Have been shoot a lot of Kemens lately and they are great. Never had a pierced primer. They use the UEE primer which in my opinion is better that Cheddite. I have also reload 50K+ of Noble Sport primers with out problems. Trash the Cheddites...

    Tom
     
  16. SMITH47

    SMITH47 Member

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    i changed to winchester primers and after about 2K i have not had another pierced primer..

    thanks folks,

    ernie
     
  17. WesleyB

    WesleyB Well-Known Member

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    Never had a problem with cheddites EVER!
     
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