1. Attention: We have put together a thread with tips and a tutorial video to help with using the new software. Please take a moment to check out the thread here: Trapshooters.com Tutorial & Help Video.
    Dismiss Notice

Photo of before/after forcing cone lengthening

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Steve Fischer, Jan 14, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Steve Fischer

    Steve Fischer Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2008
    Messages:
    518
    Location:
    Port St. Lucie, Florida
    Since there is such a discussion regarding the pro's and con's of lengthening forcing cones I thought I would post a couple of pictures of the results both before and after on one of my own SX-1 Imp. mod barrels. Every shotgun I use for competition has lengthened forcing cones, both for less recoil and for pattern performance. In my opinion, lengthening the cones gives the most results gained in modifying a shotgun barrel. I shoot around 30K rounds of ammo a year and both recoil and performance are important to me, especially at FITASC.

    As you will see in the pictures, the difference between the before and after as fare a pattern performance is concerned is the large reduction in the number of flyer pellets through a tight choke. Felt recoil is definitely reduced for me as well. The test distance was 20 yards.

    Steve
    stevefischer_2008_0210143.jpg

    stevefischer_2008_0210144.jpg

    stevefischer_2008_0210145.jpg
     
  2. wireguy

    wireguy TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,715
    I never thought I would come across someone who had less artistic talent than me, but by golly now I believe I have. Thanks Steve.
     
  3. GW22

    GW22 Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2008
    Messages:
    6,246
    I do methane treatment of barrels if you want to improve that pattern even more.

    -Gary
     
  4. Two Dogs

    Two Dogs Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,543
    Gary...Your so precious..LMAO..
     
  5. GW22

    GW22 Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2008
    Messages:
    6,246
    What? You've never SEEN a Hot Core till I've farted down your forcing cone.

    Half price. This week only.

    -Gary
     
  6. Steve Fischer

    Steve Fischer Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2008
    Messages:
    518
    Location:
    Port St. Lucie, Florida
  7. CalvinMD

    CalvinMD Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,857
    Location:
    Northeastern MD @ the top o the Bay
    Gary,..you make a heck of an argument for barrel suppressors
     
  8. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,226
    Location:
    Mesquite, Nevada
    Steve musta gradugeted frum Tron's school of art drawings? :)

    Make sence to me Steve!! You got your idea across just dandy!

    Hap
     
  9. whiz white

    whiz white Strong Supporter of Trapshooting Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    4,771
    Location:
    Rapid City SD
    At least HE tried.

    WW
     
  10. Twinbirds

    Twinbirds TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,144
    One pattern does not make it a science.
     
  11. Steve Fischer

    Steve Fischer Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2008
    Messages:
    518
    Location:
    Port St. Lucie, Florida
    twinbirds: the patterns pictured are only one of about 400 barrels I have done forcing cone work on.
    Why do you suppose many factories are now doing the longer cones on their guns. I guess they did the experiment work and decided that the concept did work. Some people are just hard to convince and then again, Some people still believe the Earth is flat. lol

    Steve
     
  12. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,848
    I don't see any "picture" as the thread title promises, so I guess I'll have to post one.

    Drawings of forcing cones are, in all cases I've seen, radically exaggerated since if they weren't, you couldn't see anything. And surely wouldn't pay to change "before" into "after."

    Kirby TGS at least includes the fact that shot is not in the chamber but rather in a shell in the chamber and so starts with a diameter of about 0.74 inches, then expands to 0.8, and then goes down to bore size. It's not as dramatic as in Kirby's drawings or in the pictures above, however.

    The top is a mid-70's Perazzi with the "short" forcing cone everyone is told to hate and the lower is a similar-era Krieghoff Vandalia with a forcing cone about 1 1/2 inches long. Even holding them in your hand you can hardly tell them apart.

    forcingconesweb2.jpg

    _That's_ before and after.

    Neil
     
  13. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    10,124
    Location:
    Northampton PA
    So we need to remove even more metal from the forcing cone and hope shrapnel doesn't interfere with squad timing!!
     
  14. Stickdp

    Stickdp Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2010
    Messages:
    309
    A short forcing cone to me is one that is 1/4"-1/2"--like you would see in a old model 12 winchester.they were designed for the old fiber wads
    And that is Steves drawing not kirby.
     
  15. kirbythegunsmith

    kirbythegunsmith Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2008
    Messages:
    192
    Neil, I want to avoid any appearance of "smarting off", so believe me when I say that I am gratified that you found some relevant and highly pertinent information amongst my writings. Whenever someone at odds with something I noted admits to finding useful data posted by me, that is one gutsy move on your part, since others have been less forthcoming in their knowledge gained from me (or at least noting a realization I submitted) when they have been trying to prove I didn't understand a particular issue. I prefer to have someone start with only some resistance to an idea, and be able to follow my train of thought that I try to put in words or comparisons that render the idea in a way that is able to be more easily and widely understood by readers of all experience levels.



    My only question at this point would be: why do you think that my drawing is somewhat "dramatic"? Do you think that I was attempting to exaggerate the details? I wasn't exactly making all points to scale, but was trying to get across the idea of how some changes are more stark than others.

    Kirby
     
  16. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,848
    Kirby, you are indeed full of surprises. Thanks.

    I think your drawings are the way they are because, as I say, otherwise there would be little to see. Yours are the _only_ ones which show - even if in unrealistic scale - the fact that body of the the shell plays a big part in the geometry of what happens as the shot moves forward. I thought you deserved credit for that.

    I also saw the way you illustrated the 3-inch chamber effect in trap without calling attention to it. I am in agreement with you that the near-standardization of long chambers in trap guns cannot be a good idea and wonder why we put up with it.

    Well, you do maybe; I don't. Somewhere in the UPS system is a new TM-9x on its way from Doug Gray which, if Perazzi fulfilled the contract, has a 18.3 or 18.4 bore, a 2 3/4 inch chamber, and 0.040 choke just like they used to have. I'll compare its performance (40 yards, 3-dram Federal Papers, ten or 20 patterns, counted pellets) with other examples of current production I have and see if we are on the right track. I'll keep you posted.

    Yours in Sport,

    Neil
     
  17. kirbythegunsmith

    kirbythegunsmith Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2008
    Messages:
    192
    I think that things work out better when we resist taking some things (or individuals) for granted. I did try to make plain the fact that we weren't using muzzle-stuffers, and that did create some situational details that seemed to slip by the thought process of those that some considered as pioneers in the field of barrel mods, such as R. Walker, Baker, etc.


    I had plenty of data from those that tread the path before me and showed me stuff (concerning choke installation, forcing cone mod. etc. basics) after gunsmithing school, and I used a lot of the information I was taught or read and just duplicated it for a while during my "journeyman" fulfillment prior to opening my own shop.


    Then I started to try to improve on what was the CPW (conventional prevailing wisdom) and put some of those details I thought were helpful into practice. After a long period of fine-tuning (plus just doing work) I did put together (in writing) some of the details that I thought shooters should know. I couldn't find much else out there that supported my ideas and/or assisted the notion of educating the shooters that were being kept in the dark of highly important information, such as the fact that many barrels coming with choke tubes installed were deficient in choke alignment. Nearly everyone I speak to about that fine point of shotgun performance has never heard that before, and very few of the others had contemplated the possibility before having a really rude example land in their possession.


    That is some of the information posted on my website, which was intended to primarily show and tell what I knew and wanted the shooter to understand about potential issues that could impact their shooting success. I posted enough unique information to make many readers aware of details available nowhere else on the web, as far as I could tell. I have had calls from readers that found my site by typing in "crooked choke tube" and similar into their search bar.


    The real resistance that seems to come my way from those that expect that they know more than anybody else has to do with the need for having the choke installed straight. Plenty of times when I posted about a shooter having a gun that shot off having to consider the possibility of the choke tube being offset, others would chime in that the shooter just needed to adjust the stock with shims to move the point of impact. (There was almost complete absence of acknowledgement of what I posited, or a downplaying of the importance)


    I had concluded that the shims were to make the shooter have the correct (at least L-R) sight picture (and possible alteration of fit for their benefit), so any alteration off the central view was an inducement of error to cover up another error - the crooked choke. Moving the face over to fix an impact issue is as off-base as pulling off and rotating the steering wheel on the steering shaft if the front end is out of alignment (there goes another one of those car analogies). Sometimes a shooter might need to be pragmatic or keep expenses down, but to ignore the possible improvement is a tip of the "luddite" hat, to me.


    BTW, I did talk to Steve before about SX stuff, and had seen some of his print information that brought out issues that had missed being in a lot of other articles about classic Winchesters.


    Kirby
     
  18. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    5,722
    You would be suprised to see the LLLLoOooooooNNNNnnngggggg forcing cones in the Caesar Guerini Bbls and in the later model Kolar's.

    The Fabarms XLR5 has 2 3/4 inch chambers not the old field guns 3 inch chambers.

    It was designed to shoot TRAP SHELLS FROM THE GET GO

    And their choke tubes are not short and stubby like Perazzi and Kreighoff tubes to name a few.

    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longhshot
     
  19. Smiley

    Smiley Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    148
    My guess on reading this thread is that the biggest influence on patterns is the choking at the end of the barrel.I have an early 90's Perazzi MX 8 that has a 18.4 mm bore ,the choking in this gun starts at 125mm from the end of the barrel and tapers for 75mm then parallels out for the last 50mm.The patterns are very even as I believe the extra 50mm after the choke lets the shot stabilise before it leaves the barrel reducing the fliers.With the bigger bore barrels the taper at the chamber end should not be as bigger influence as it would be in the tighter European bores that are in the 18.1 to 18.4 mm range
    JMHO Paul
     
  20. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    8,542
    Location:
    HELL, MICHIGAN
    Why not just let the choke section be the forcing cone??
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Search tags for this page
shotgun forcing cone pictures
,
lengthening forcing cones
,
long shotgun forcing cone
,
picture of forcing coner
,

shotgun forcing cone lengthening

,
shotgunforsingcone