1. Attention: We have put together a thread with tips and a tutorial video to help with using the new software. Please take a moment to check out the thread here: Trapshooters.com Tutorial & Help Video.
    Dismiss Notice

Phils survey and PROS

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by 46_trap, Jul 9, 2010.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. 46_trap

    46_trap TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    78
    Survey was good. Moving the max yardage is not good! It would work maybe at the grand, but to increase the size of trap clubs would be eliminating a lot of the small clubs because of space. I think that Phil is a PRO and all of them that make money teaching trapshooting. How do you feek about that Phil?
    Ed Keefer Life member 8903760
     
  2. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    10,124
    Location:
    Northampton PA
    Shot 3-hole targets at the local club last night. Unfortunately I missed one out of 50-never came up and dropped too. That said, it's great to see real straightaways from post one and five-just like the original rulebook required.
    45 squads last night and not one shooter complained or went home crying!!
     
  3. Pull & Mark

    Pull & Mark Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2006
    Messages:
    5,409
    Ed, While it is not a big deal to me, I do feel that the pro's should move farther back. If there still winning most of the money move them back father, why should I have to shoot harder targets, make them only shoot harder targets. I don't think that this would effect to many small clubs at all, if they don't hold large shoots that attract the big boys. Some smaller clubs may even have their top shooters move back as well. Some club members might like winning a few time a year if their best local shooter moved back to say the 30 or more. Let the small clubs take care of their own, but let average shooter at a big shoot to have a better chance. Is this not what handicapping a shooter is all about. Why set a limit at 27 yards!!! Break-em all. Jeff
     
  4. Ahab

    Ahab Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,650
    Oh yeah! Let's move them so far back that the twice a month hack shooters can beat them1

    And while we are at it, let's charge them double prices!


    Sheeeesh!
     
  5. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,226
    Location:
    Mesquite, Nevada
    ATA has always saw fit to increase yardage as an equalizer in the past. Two yards were due when the max shooters began breaking 100s in the late 70s according to what was done in the past with tougher angles (44 degree targets)! Merely adopting the old standard (3 hole target angles) can't possibly make up for the sports negligence for more difficult targets. Neither can it do an adequate job of further handicapping the most proficient shooters of today either! We have tremendously improved guns and ammunition and our leadership took the easier way out completely opposite of prior decisions for registered shooting.

    Ed, how many of the best shooters around the country attend your club now that would require adding more yardage? If they do show up, let them shoot their targets from the 27 yard line. Like was done when the max yardage was the 25 yard line!

    It wouldn't be necessary for all clubs to add more yardage either, that's an excuse for the easier driven agendas for those not wanting ANY changes in our sport. Too bad we didn't have more of those guys around when all the rule cheating began in the 80s??

    Hap
     
  6. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    10,124
    Location:
    Northampton PA
    I'm still waiting to see Harlan, Kay, Ray, Leo and a host of other top shooters standing in line while entering the Handicap event at a 3 squad shoot in Timbuctu, Iowa.

    Where do some people dream up this nonsense? Must be the water.

    Move 'em back!!
     
  7. RAU

    RAU Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    34
    The handicap in the handicap event is yardage. In an ideal world there would be no back fence. You earn yardage you move back. This yardage is the handicap. The problem lies with 1. Having room 2. Added expense for clubs 3. How far is far enough? (equipment and time will tell) 4. The biggest of all RESISTANCE TO CHANGE.

    How long was it debated befor the 25 was the fence? How long on the 27? I ask these questions because I was not around to see these events happen. I don't believe that a 30 yard line in this day and age would last long. The 30 would end up being to short also. How long after the 30 would it be debated befor another change?

    One more thing the added yardage may change. I do think you would see more reductions taken. The people sitting on the 27 refusing reductions would no longer have a reason to do so if it were not the back fence any more.

    Thanks
    Rick
     
  8. 46_trap

    46_trap TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    78
    What is a PRO?
    I consider a PRO as any person that has been on the 27 yard line for 10 years.
    All PROS should be shooting for there own money "lewis" and should be limited to 25% of the money awards for winning the event. If, a shooter takes a reduction and then wins an event, he goes back to the 27 yard line for another 10 years. I do not play the Lewis, so it has no effect on me. Shooters ask me why I do not play the Lewis. "If, I play the Lewis, you know the fix is in." You know that that fixing the Lewis is "Slim and None".
    I shoot trap not for the money! I shoot for the glory. I have had my "glory" a few times. But I still keep shooting, the next shoot may be a new glory one.
    Come to the Norry Gun club (in PA) this weekend and see if I get another "Glory".
    There is nothing that can be done about sandbaggers. I call them "target managers".
    My thoughts on what a PRO is takes care of increasing the yardage.
    Ed Keefer
     
  9. phirel

    phirel TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,556
    Move them back. I am not good enough to beat the best shooters now and I am not willing to pay the price to reach that level. So, it is only fair to move them back.

    Pat Ireland
     
  10. KEYBEAR

    KEYBEAR Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,222
    I agree with Pat move them back . I,m thinking about 1/2 mile .

    I read some of this and it,s funny as hell . Let,s add yardage even if most small clubs can,t . Most clubs would never use the 28-29 or 30 smart thinking . Three hole would help but no the average shooter would need to shoot better also that would be unfair (right). We need a way to win now without talent or hard work . Time for the Pro,s to start paying me to shoot now.

    News Flash Most of us are Average shooters (DUH) never will be in the top 10 and will be paying for our own targets-shells and stuff as long as we shoot .

    Thats the way it works children you play you pay .
     
  11. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,459
    Location:
    SE PA
    I agree with 46 trap that moving beyond the 27 is not a good thing. First thee is the expense involved. Then there are the logistics. That's another yardage range you have to squad for. Plus, if you don't make it at least 30 yards, it is not worth the effort.

    Here is the rub. In the East, it is just barely possible to achieve a 100% chance of a one pellet strike on 40 yard distant trap target. It's a touch easier out West. I think adding 3 yards puts that out of reach.

    So if you think a shooter who points perfectly for 100 targets should have a 100% chance of breaking those targets, then with 27 is the answer.

    If you don't care if an element of luck is involved in running 100, then there are better and cheaper ways to handicap the best 27 yard shooters. Moving to mandatory 1 oz loads will accomplish much of what all of you who think tinkering with the present setup is required. Yes, 1 oz of #8 has slightly more pellets that 1 1/8 oz of 7 1/2, but not as much energy, so you could still have a 100% probability of a one pellet strike, but with reduced energy. Most of the big dawgs profess to believe in speed and energy, so shoot 1 1/8oz & 1/2 at more than 1200fps.

    Moving to 1 oz and capping velocity at something lower than the current 1290fps max will introduce an element of luck into the equation and reduce the number of perfect scores. However, it will also reduce the scores of everyone else to a somewhat greater extent, so the question becomes- why do you want to do this.

    I always think there is an ulterior motive to this idea. Is it to get more money into the purses and options? To give the lessor shooter a glimmer of hope at winning the options other than modified Lewis? Or is it just plain resentment that some are great shooters while you are not?

    I'm constantly told clubs want to encourage more shooters to shoot ATA at their club. I'm told that shooters want to shoot where they can post high scores. So many clubs throw soft 2-hole targets to keep scores as high as possible. How does that jibe with anything that will reduce scores, like lowering payloads or velocity?

    Here is one method of equalizing scores for all you who think that a good idea. 19-22 yarders shoot in the normal rotation at targets throw by a trap locked for straight-aways. 23-25 yarders shoot at 48 yard, 2-hole targets. 26-27 yarders shoot at 50 yard, 3-hole targets. That will equalize score and make all the short yarders pour money into the options. Yeah, right.

    On a serious note, here is what I would like to see done. As one of the events at the Grand, or other big shoot, have the ATA put up a $10,000 winner take all prize. Then have Phil and Leo and Harlan, etc. compete in a 300 bird handicap championship shooting the ATA legal shell of their choice from the 30 yard line. The prize is enough to keep them from "throwing" the result. The events could be held over three big shoots to spread them out. Then compare all the 30 yard scores with their 27 yard scores shot during the event to see just how much of a handicap an additional 3 yards is the the best shooters. I'm betting it is not much, and certainly not enough to make the rest of us competitive enough to win.

    Then do the same thing with 1 oz loads. The idea is to get some solid facts, or at least good evidence, before any changes are made.

    BTW, I used to think that it was unfair to allow luck to play a role. I no longer feel as strongly, because it actually already does. When I grossly mispoint a bird and I get a chip from one pellet, that's luck. So I no longer say we should stay at 27 for that reason. That being said, I would find it intellectually interesting to find out how far back the greats would go if they continued to be puched in the normal way. Any bets? 30? 32? Just how far back would they have to move before they stopped winning events or punches?
     
  12. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,538
    Location:
    Oxford MA
    46_trap

    "What is a PRO? I consider a PRO as any person that has been on the 27 yard line for 10 years. All PROS should be shooting for there own money "lewis" and should be limited to 25% of the money awards for winning the event."

    Now I have been an advocate of more concrete for a while now. I am accused of trying to make it more difficult for the Big Dogs to win and easier for the average shooter to win. With that being said how would others classify these question and statements.

    "What is a PRO?"

    You have now asked for a definition of a Pro you go on to say,

    "I consider a PRO as any person that has been on the 27 yard line for 10 years."

    So any shooter that has been forced in to a situation that they have no control over you would punish by making them a Pro!!!!!!! Once a shooter reaches the 27 he can only stop being on the 27 by taking a reduction(if one is offered)or they quit shooting. So why would you be willing to punish the Big Dogs for conditions outside of their control??????

    You also want to limit the "PRO'S as you call them to a percentage of the money. Would you also limit the average shooter to a percentage or is he just allowed to win as much as he wants???? Now that sounds fair and equal to me YA RIGHT!!!!!!!

    " My thoughts on what a PRO is takes care of increasing the yardage."

    Well tell us how does limiting the amount of money they can win stop the 27 yard shooter from dominating the handicap. Of course now that you have the long time 27 yard shooters classified as "Pro's" as you call them. The whole situation will be fixed, right YA GOT YA.

    "This yardage is the handicap. The problem lies with 1. Having room 2. Added expense for clubs 3. How far is far enough? (equipment and time will tell) 4. The biggest of all RESISTANCE TO CHANGE."

    As I see it there are 25% of the reasons that affect a yardage increase only # 1 truly effects the yardage increase if there is no room there is no room the other reason are nothing more than excuses.

    Pat

    "Move them back. I am not good enough to beat the best shooters now and I am not willing to pay the price to reach that level. So, it is only fair to move them back."

    So Pat tell us what price you had to pay to get to Big Dog status???? How many honorary yards did you take last year???? Did you take them all at the big shoots or at small shoots at small clubs????

    Here is the one that really proves how ignorant so people really are,

    "Oh yeah! Let's move them so far back that the twice a month hack shooters can beat them1"

    In the first place no one is going to move anyone back. That isn't exactly how it works, it works the same for Big Dogs as it does for the peons. You win or shoot a qualifying score they get yardage the same as anyone else gets they move themselves back by the same method as everyone else.

    So where do the geniuses come up with this crap. "move them so far back that the twice a month hack shooters can beat them1"

    Amazing I didn't believe that people that shoot the association can be so ignorant the only thing that will change is where the progression of yardage stops!!!!!!!

    Bob Lawless
     
  13. maltzahn

    maltzahn Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    542
    Location:
    Creston, IA
    Petty jealousy is an ugly thing. We just need an event that "me" wins everytime. Maybe some additional prestige and glory for "D" class...ya, thats the ticket. That will bring new shooters to the ATA. Bigger trophies for the lower classes. Plus a new pair of overalls. But...if one of you would-be's hit the 27 yard line, your a fricken PRO and a SOB thief. How about a large trophy for whinnig? Another for bitchin', and a grand slam award for being expert at all.

    Troubling....just troubling. You boy's need to take up skeet. Lots of boohoo fellowship in that clay game.

    Maltzie
     
  14. smsnyder

    smsnyder Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    4,830
    I think answer the is combined 3 hole targets and allow 17 to 18 yard handicap for shooters. This will cover the pros and beginners.
     
  15. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    10,124
    Location:
    Northampton PA
    According to some since I've been at the 27 for 15 years I should be labeled a PRO-I think not!

    According to Pat and others since I've been shooting since 1963 and registered since 1972 with hundreds of thousands of practice and registered targets under my belt the big dogs should be fair game-never happen.

    Some seem to equate money spent on practice with some magic formula for success. Yet, I know one shooter who spends countless dollars on new guns, shoots a minimum of 1,000 practice handicap targets from the fence each week, and still can't average above 93%. I can also name one shooter who shot 334,800 registered singles in his career and never broke a 200 straight. How many more practice targets would be enough to beat the top All-Americans on a regular basis?

    In case some haven't figured this thing out yet, some people are better than you and me at this game regardless of how long you practice and how much money you spend. That's why the average ATA shooter leaves this game in only a few years-his inability to accept the fact he's a loser. The game of handicap trap was an attempt to make winners out of losers. It's failing the test!!
     
  16. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,538
    Location:
    Oxford MA
    Dawg I don't know where you get off by making sense. It easier to leave thing just the way they are don't you understand that the poor clubs that can afford Pat Traps and voice releases can't afford more concrete??????

    Bob Lawless
     
  17. phirel

    phirel TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,556
    Bob- First, thank you for including me in the "big dog" group. You are the only one who has ever said that about me. I did get 4 honorary punches last year. One at a Satellite Grand and three at smaller clubs. None of them payed any money because I don't play any money. I do plan to get a couple more next week at the Southern Zone and then a few at the Grand.

    I also very much like the suggestion of classifying anyone who has been on the 27 for 10 or more years as a professional. Boy, this thread has made me both a big dog and a pro and I didn't have to do anything. I like that.

    Pat Ireland
     
  18. perga1

    perga1 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,474
    Maybe all that money the ATA collected for land aquisition could go back to the local clubs and shooters (that's where it came from) in the form of grants to add concrete to their fields. That would be novel, the ATA giving back. JRM
     
  19. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,538
    Location:
    Oxford MA
    Pat with what you have said,

    "One at a Satellite Grand and three at smaller clubs."

    So where should you stand if the fence were moved back and you took that honorary yardage? Should you only stand there at big shoots or at all shoots???

    You among others have said that many clubs do not have the room to add more concrete. Yet in 1955 that didn't stop the ATA ruling in favor of more(2 more yards)concrete. So why should it now, why should now be different than then.

    It didn't matter then and I don't think it matters now. I get the feeling that those that are using it now are copping out to help save their clubs money nothing more.

    Bob Lawless
     
  20. 1oldtimer

    1oldtimer TS Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2010
    Messages:
    2,003
    Phil's survey and PROS
    Sounds like my Handicap yardage increase,chapter 2. Please don't penalize the shooter just because he earns yardage,fair right.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.