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Phil Kiner's trap knowledge

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Neil Winston, Jan 25, 2009.

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  1. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    ATA rules provide for asking for a trap to be reset. Surely you agree this is better done from post three than Vandalia, don't you?

    Neil
     
  2. Bob Hawkes

    Bob Hawkes Well-Known Member

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    Come North Jerry. I wouldn't reset without both. Someone may have made a change after you'd set the targets and you weren't aware of it. How else are you to know? Shoot well and often while we can. Bob
     
  3. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    Within reason and the rules targets should be reset to the liking of the squad.
     
  4. j2jake

    j2jake Well-Known Member

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    Bet there is a large crop of shooters that wish they could hit the targets as easy as they can get them reset. Ever notice them fellas that get the targets reset and still shoot somewhere other than where the target is? Jerry B., if you come to the Jacksonville Chain I promise that if you ask for a reset I'll use the T-Bar and radar gun. As a matter of fact I'll do the same for anyone who asks for a reset! Jake
     
  5. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    The accepted trend is toward a higher more faced target for higher scores.

    Getting targets reset to an 8 or 9 foot hight at launch 10 yards out depends on who is asking, period.

    On my friend Pat Ireland's thread concerning cheating, I posted a question and it went unanswered as yet.

    It seems the term sportsmanship has dwindled somewhat with all the chatter about individuals cheating in the game. What may be done to such a cheat is endless with opinions all over the board. The age old term (cheaters never win)leads me to ask another question. What do we do about cheating club operators setting softer angles and distances a clay is thrown? Please don't tell me you won't shoot those either since most guys don't know what a legally set target looks like coming off the trap. Who would you call and what can they do to prevent this?

    Hap

    Evidently the answer to my question above is don't waste your dime or time.

    I haven't read Phil's Trap&Field column as my copy came in Saturday and I haven't gotten into it yet.

    Todays enforcement through our ATA is just as lax as it was during the cheating 3 hole era! Who's running the show? Club operators and the whims of the top shooters shooting the most targets thats who!

    Myself, along with other nobody's on the squad asked for targets to be lowered, no dice was the word! BTW, I was shooting off post three so that don't hold much water either. Learn to shootum as they are thrown and keep the mouth shut, you'll break more targets.

    Gene Hapney
     
  6. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Neil Winston

    "ATA rules provide for asking for a trap to be reset. Surely you agree this is better done from post three than Vandalia"

    Neil I do agree and your point expresses how I feel exactly. The ATA is not at the shoot down the road and they can't be expected to know whether the targets at Podunk USA are set correctly that has to come from those that shoot at that particular club.

    However if a reset is requested and refused(and some clubs have been refusing to check the setting on their targets at the request of the shooter. They prefer to say they look alright to me.

    Just what is the recourse to the shooter if a reset or at least a recheck of the setting is refused. There has to be a way to make sure that certain clubs/associations do not continue to refuse to at least check the targets. The shooter certainly can't refuse to shoot unless they reset the targets, can he?

    As far as FlaLagarto suggestion is concerned he is not wrong it happens and it happens a lot.

    Bob Lawless
     
  7. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

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    It used to be the targets were set and that was what you shot, at unless they got really out of adjustment ... Its never seemed to be a problem back then but it sure as hell is one now ... We used to use a T-Bar and the 50 yard stakes, now they use radar guns, T-bars, and anything else you can apply and nobody is happy, except a few of course who hit em all ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  8. colobiggun

    colobiggun Active Member

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    I didn't get from Phil's article any inkling of having the targets reset. I took it that he kept detailed records of places he shoots, and what settings on his gun worked best for those places, along with recognizing targets and their differences, and adjusting his gun to match them. Phil is definitely one that shoots them where they are, not where they're supposed to be, and advises others (us) to learn to recognize these differences, and to learn as he did. I thought it was a great idea, and am thankful for him sharing this info for those of us not smart enough to figure this out on our own.
     
  9. Uncle Sam

    Uncle Sam Member

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    I would dearly love to read Mr. Kiner's article in the January Trap and Field but I never got my January issue. Either did a bunch of other subscribers!! Maybe I'll get two issues of February !!.......Uncle Sam,Pa.
     
  10. Phil Kiner

    Phil Kiner Well-Known Member

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    A couple of years ago at a major shoot both of our traps were throwing the targets about 10 yards past the stake in a 25+ mph wind. The target setter came by while we were either on deck or in the hole waiting to shoot. I asked him to look me in the eye and tell me they were legal. He watched for awhile and turned to me and said the first is not as bad as the second and walked off. I went by to watch the last squad and it was still throwing an ilegal target.

    Point is no matter what everyone thinks it is not always possible to get a reset and besides that most times you are better off shooting them the way they are instead of taking a chance on what they might be after the reset.

    Lastly, our squad has a policy of not asking for resets unless something is broken.
     
  11. colobiggun

    colobiggun Active Member

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    BTW...Where can I get some of the washers you talk about for my daughter's gun? Do they come in different sizes (thickness)? If you have the time, e-mail me at my sign on name and earthlink.net.

    Jay
     
  12. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    WPT

    "It used to be the targets were set and that was what you shot, at unless they got really out of adjustment ... Its never seemed to be a problem back then but it sure as hell is one now ..."

    Part of the reason for that just might be the practice of removing the 50 yard stake when using a radar gun. Many of the clubs that are now using a radar gun remove the 50 yard stake because it would seem that the rulebook says the targets must be set by measured speed or distance. Not both so those that are using RG's are starting to remove the stakes.

    The sad part of that is the shooters on the line don't carry a RG and only have their own judgment for hight and the stake for distance. Now when something doesn't look right the shooters have no stake to use and the whining starts. You get the picture.

    Bob Lawless
     
  13. The Kissable Wanker

    The Kissable Wanker TS Member

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    In my area it depends on the club. Some clubs will reset to the shooter request, some will check with the stick or gun, others will say shoot them like they are because others have already done so, and others will say "Looks good to Me". If one wants to shoot that day you have to take what they are willing to give you, mark down what happened and don't go there again.
     
  14. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

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    Ivanhoe,

    I understand what you are saying but it seemed a lot to be a lot easier back then ... If the targets were checked and out of adjustment they got changed otherwise you shot them as they were ... I don't recall there being as much complaining and the game seemed to be more of a sporting event rather than question every aspect of it and find excuses to lose rather than reasons to win ... If there are two traps side by side they should be relatively close in settings or I could see a reason to complain ... There are extremes in most everything, target setting included but there also has to be a happy medium and guildlines to try and keep the majority happy ... RogerC. knows good targets, I have no idea how many he and I have set together, but its a bunch ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  15. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    WPT never said you were wrong just told you part of the reason as I see it. You also have to expect it to be more cried about today. What with shooter attitudes being what they are today.

    You understand what I mean with the majority of the shooters today finding a way to blame the ATA for all of the ills in the association.

    You and I see it everyday . You know the guy that says I saw it happen and the ATA didn't do a thing about it. Of course the fact that they didn't either speaks volumes for what the whining is all about.

    Bob Lawless
     
  16. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Some clubs do not realize that the most important thing they can do is put the very best legal target in the air for the shooters.

    A side note: I watched Phil K. shoot less than well set targets last Spring. The squad who followed his squad requested that the targets be checked. They were reset. If Phil had requested the targets be reset, perhaps he would have broken more than the 50/50 he did break on that field. If he had only broken one more, his score would have been 101 and he would have avoided a shoot off.

    Pat Ireland
     
  17. quicky

    quicky Member

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    Speaking of Phil's failure to break 51 out of 50 targets on a poorly set trap, I watched him shoot doubles on a 2-person squad. The lady shooter in front of him may have broken 60 of her doubles. Phil only hit another 100. It was kind of fun to watch him shoot because he talked to himself throughout. I don't have a clue what he was saying but he probably wasn't rehearsing stock quotes. I thought that he displayed remarkable concentration and shooting ability. Quicky
     
  18. Hauser

    Hauser Member

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    This always has had the simplest of solutions. Change the rule as follows:


    "Once targets are legally set they cant be changed unless they become illegal".


    Jerry Hauser
     
  19. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Jerry- How about this suggestion. Once targets are set the best they can be under the conditions, they will not be changed unless the conditions change and they can be set better.

    I lean toward setting the best legal targets, not just legal targets.

    Pat Ireland
     
  20. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    Pat, please define "best". In who's eyes?
     
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