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PHIL KINER TRAPSHOOTING SURVEY RESULTS

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Phil Kiner, Aug 6, 2010.

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  1. Phil Kiner

    Phil Kiner Well-Known Member

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    As promised the results of my survey are now posted on my blog at TrapandField.com

    Thanks to all that participated. I did get to present the results to the ATA Executive Committee (EC). They (EC) seemed to be truly interested in the results.

    Thanks again. Phil
     
  2. Setterman

    Setterman Well-Known Member

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    Interesting. A lot of the answers are split down the middle. No wonder we argue!
     
  3. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Good survey, Phil. I don't understand the responses averages to question 15, though. Could you give us some help on that?

    I am impressed with the seriousness with which your respondents seem to have taken your poll and the amount of effort you must have expended in getting it. Thanks.

    Neil
     
  4. smsnyder

    smsnyder Well-Known Member

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    Good poll. Not alot of changes expected from current system. Seems like the biggest change people want is a Pro class and a problem with sandbaggers.
     
  5. N. J. BOB

    N. J. BOB Active Member

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    Thanks Phil
     
  6. midalake

    midalake Well-Known Member

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    Great survey. VERY DISSAPOINTED to see "sandbagging" Getting any press when it comes to handicap. At any major shoot you go to, 97,98,99 are winning scores. You need to be an AA or AAA shooter in singles with these scores. I do not see ANY AA or AAA shootes standing on the 20yd line..........So I just don't get the bitch???????

    GS
     
  7. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

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    Good job Phil, I think the number of people who responded should of been higher but the response was at least respectable ... I am a little surprised at a few of the percentages but it is what it is ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  8. Bob Hawkes

    Bob Hawkes Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for your never ending efforts in our behalf Phil. I wish that I was aware of Mr. Glatz's efforts and letters prior to taking your poll. We need change in the way the ATA is run, badly. Thank you again, Bob
     
  9. Trapshooter1

    Trapshooter1 Member

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  10. matttrapn

    matttrapn Active Member

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    Thank Phil. Interesting answers in regard to the EC and ED. Wonder if those answers might change if survey was ran again today?

    Matt Nicol
     
  11. senior smoke

    senior smoke Well-Known Member

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    Phil:
    Thank you for all the time spent on this poll. Some of the percentages were very interesting. The number one thing that I took from this poll, which I already knew was, that most of the shooters as well as the ATA's BOD do not like change. One thing I know for certain is that what ever changes are made, if any, not everyone will ever agree. I feel the ATA like TS.com has two factions. One being the older experienced shooters, most set in their ways, including myself. Then the younger shooter with new different ideas. I am not saying that either ones ideas are wrong, but different. Maybe that's why we all get along so well on this site.
    Steve Balistreri
     
  12. Mr.M

    Mr.M Supporting Vendor Supporting Vendor

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    Phil,

    Only real surprise is the sandbagger response. I wonder if that would have diminished if we had a clear definition of what "sandbagger" actually meant. I've been shooting tournament trap for forty years all over the country at every level (400,000 targets) and have only known of three or four individuals who have deliberately (and demonstrably) dropped targets in handicaps to keep from getting a punch in advance of a major handicap or tournament. We had two working together in California about twenty years ago and they stuck out like a sore thumb. We handled the issue at the local level (CGSTA) and the problem disappeared.

    I think a lot of the response is probably directed at the respondent's shooting buddy who beat him out of the $7.00 Lewis payoff the weekend before he took the survey. That doesn't make him a sandbagger, just the lucky so-and-so who shot a 20 on the last trap and still hit the Lewis.

    Respectfully submitted, Mike Mann ATA Life 07-34685
     
  13. perga1

    perga1 Active Member

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    Thanks for your time and trouble Phil. I wish you had included a question on what classes and yardage the responders were in/at. I think that may have added some insight to the answers. Jim Mendoza
     
  14. CalamitySJ

    CalamitySJ Member

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    Phil,

    So interesting, appreciated, and as a lover of statistics I have only one question--it is possible to tell us numbers/percentage of responders by geographical location? It would also be interesting to break down the responses by Zones (to get that geographical flavour of opinion) but even I wouldn't wish that upon anyone but myself, locked away in my office with 24 diet Coke and a tub of macaroni and cheese. Sounds like the perfect holiday.

    Calamity
     
  15. maltzahn

    maltzahn Active Member

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    Phil

    Thanks for your effort to improve trapshooting. Wish ATA leadership would have the same passion. Cetainly some do, but not all. If your interested..... you get my vote.

    As one of those long time avid shooting members, I see little wrong with the ATA as is, but would welcome any change that would swell our ranks. My real concern is for those that play our game on a limited basis, their opinions to have more merit than the committment made. Your analysis seems to have some measure available.

    maltzie
     
  16. kenf

    kenf Active Member

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    I find both the comparison between singles average and handicap yardage interesting, in that most responses cited a A to AA singles average, but the handicap yardages were spread pretty evenly across the board. Is it truly that hard to earn yardage, or is earning yardage too easy and getting reductions too hard?

    I would like to see a breakout coupling singles average to handicap yardage.

    It seems evident that most shooters come out to try and win money, friendship and fun are likely second and third. I would have liked to have seen that question asked, 'Why do you shoot registered targets?' If it is for competition and bragging rights, and if so, why not take the money out it? Or should it be like the old golf saying 'Drive for show, Putt for dough'? Shoot singles to brag, and put all of the money in handicap, BUT combine the two as a 200 target event, rather than separate them?

    Based on the responses to the playing the options questions, I wonder why shooters are still shooting singles, other than the chance that they hit the LEWIS, however, most responded that they quit because it isn't worth the risk. Maybe Phil can make another comparison here between those who play and those who don't to the reason why they do not play options.

    One last thought, it would be interesting to see the breakdown between averages, options players, and those believing that there should be a PRO class, especially a PRO class financially supported by the PRO shooters themselves. That's insane. Trapshooting will always have the next generation of guys coming up that shoot like machines. The recent long run records set by relative unknowns are proof of that. Sure, these guys have won big events, but did not have name recognition in the sport like Harrison, Kiner, Stafford, Ohye and the like. Time will change that, if registered trapshooting survives its internal problems and external problems like environmentalists and urban sprawl.
     
  17. old tex

    old tex TS Member

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    Thanks Phil
     
  18. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    I'm not the least surprised that there is so much attention on sandbagging as being one of our biggest problems. By Phil's poll we also identified that the average shooter doesn't want to shoot against the Pro's either.

    It's the same thing to the average Joe. He/she's not going to risk their hard earned money to the cheatin' sandbagger any more than they are to the Pro's. To them it's the same thing. No surprise at all.
     
  19. JACK

    JACK Well-Known Member Supporting Vendor

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    Based on the negativity That surrounds this issue on the TS.com forum, I am surprised that the majority feel the system is pretty good. I'm in that camp. Seems to me that the older we get (think regular posters on TS.com) the more we complain. I reflect back to the Zone shoot whee a young man won the hcp event with a high score from the 27 and now he has just become a qualifier for the 100 grand. And too, our system allows the up and comer to get lucky and get a break while on the way up. I cannot shoot with those good shooters, but they let me enter and hope. And I giv eyou odds that those good shooters are working harder at breaking targets than I am. Or that you are.
     
  20. Ljutic 4 Ice

    Ljutic 4 Ice TS Member

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    Thanks Phil, very informative....
     
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