1. Attention: We have put together a thread with tips and a tutorial video to help with using the new software. Please take a moment to check out the thread here: Trapshooters.com Tutorial & Help Video.
    Dismiss Notice

Phil Kiner Blog Part II

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Phil Kiner, Dec 11, 2008.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Phil Kiner

    Phil Kiner Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,211
    Thought I would put this on a new thread since the old one is getting so long and varied.

    I talked Federal and this is what he had to say. First regarding the supply of ammo in the pipeline-- the company and distributors would at the most have about a year and a half worth of stock. Having said that he did say there would be concern on his part because since the election they have seen a “lot of stocking up” and he had no way to guess what the factor was but definitely more that normal. Based on that at this time Federal feels that there is a minimum of 2 years of 1 1/8 ammo in the pipeline. He was quick to point out that they had no idea what the normal stock up factor for the rest of the shooters.


    Now on to the speed issue. Federal does not see a problem from their end. If you tell them that the maximum loads shall average 1200 fps that is what they will make. Right now all their ammo is marked as to speed on the box. All this ammo is tested on their induction coil. I was told this is the only accurate way to measure velocity on shotshells. If you measure on a regular chronograph sometimes you measure the first pellet(s), sometimes the last, and sometimes the middle “wad” of shot. This is why screen chronos show a lot of variation in shotshells. This is not a problem with single projectiles. Federal’s most consistent line of ammo has a variation of about 35 fps and their “worst” will be about 70 fps. I was told it doesn’t really matter what the variation is as long as the average is 1200 that is what the ammo will average. If you make the max 1200 fps average it will definitely be slower than the handicap loads they currently make.


    His comment was just go back to 1200 fps for the rule and the ammo companies will build just that. His comment was that the great majority of the top handicap shots were shooting factory ammo anyway so this would solve that problem. When asked about regulating the rule his comment was the only regulation that has ever existed came from the manufactures anyway so why try to reinvent the horse.

    I asked Tom Wilkinson what he thought about 1 versus 1 1/18 loads and his comment was that he had done a lot of testing and he really thought you could be effective from the 27 with 1 ounce. The one caveat is that it has to be 6% antimony lead or it will not make it. The 3% shot will not pattern well enough to be consistent at the 27 and with the 3% you will really get a lot of holes in the pattern that will cause probable missed birds. He also thinks that one ounce may be better for the younger generation and the women
     
  2. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,864
    Thanks for making the call, Phil. Did they offer to help us write a rule and test suspect ammo? I've got a four-foot cube of Federal 118-7.5 (three dram papers.) Are these going to be legal?

    Neil
     
  3. perga1

    perga1 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,474
    Neil, with all those papers on hand (lucky dog) why not test them or call Fereral and ask them if they would average 1200 fps? Jim
     
  4. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,864
    I'll bet they will average close to that Jim. But the question is, how is the ATA going to find that out?

    Neil
     
  5. perga1

    perga1 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,474
    Faith Neil, Faith. Jim
     
  6. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,864
    I'm sure you are exactly right, Jim, but I was hoping for maybe something a little more concrete.

    Neil
     
  7. perga1

    perga1 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,474
    Concrete? We can't pour no more damn concrete. Jim
     
  8. otnot

    otnot Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,426
    Concrete is the cheapest building material you can find. Just pour it! It's only $120 a yard so that equates to $15 for a 3'x3'pad or $75/field if you don't connect the pads or double that if you want to connect the pads.
     
  9. perga1

    perga1 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,474
    Neil, what do we have now as a check/balance on the speed limits in the current rule book? Jim
     
  10. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,864
    One shell or more , testing plan not mentioned. One overspeed shell puts you out.

    Neil
     
  11. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,229
    Location:
    Mesquite, Nevada
    "One shell or more , testing plan not mentioned. One overspeed shell puts you out."

    Neil

    Does that apply to factory ammunitions as well as handloads? Hap
     
  12. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,864
    Sure, Hap. Why not?

    Neil
     
  13. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,229
    Location:
    Mesquite, Nevada
    Neil, I knew I should have written that a tad different. If Super Handicaps were the ones challenged, @ 1250fps which is stated on the box, any load tested and found over the speed limit and the guys out? I ask knowing Sporting Clays loads are 1300fps on the box so thats an automatic foul. One more, what about weight of the max loads, 1-1/8 ounces, any allowence % there? Hap
     
  14. Phil Kiner

    Phil Kiner Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,211
    Thought I would put this on a new thread since the old one is getting so long and varied.

    I talked Federal and this is what he had to say. First regarding the supply of ammo in the pipeline-- the company and distributors would at the most have about a year and a half worth of stock. Having said that he did say there would be concern on his part because since the election they have seen a “lot of stocking up” and he had no way to guess what the factor was but definitely more that normal. Based on that at this time Federal feels that there is a minimum of 2 years of 1 1/8 ammo in the pipeline. He was quick to point out that they had no idea what the normal stock up factor for the rest of the shooters.


    Now on to the speed issue. Federal does not see a problem from their end. If you tell them that the maximum loads shall average 1200 fps that is what they will make. Right now all their ammo is marked as to speed on the box. All this ammo is tested on their induction coil. I was told this is the only accurate way to measure velocity on shotshells. If you measure on a regular chronograph sometimes you measure the first pellet(s), sometimes the last, and sometimes the middle “wad” of shot. This is why screen chronos show a lot of variation in shotshells. This is not a problem with single projectiles. Federal’s most consistent line of ammo has a variation of about 35 fps and their “worst” will be about 70 fps. I was told it doesn’t really matter what the variation is as long as the average is 1200 that is what the ammo will average. If you make the max 1200 fps average it will definitely be slower than the handicap loads they currently make.


    His comment was just go back to 1200 fps for the rule and the ammo companies will build just that. His comment was that the great majority of the top handicap shots were shooting factory ammo anyway so this would solve that problem. When asked about regulating the rule his comment was the only regulation that has ever existed came from the manufactures anyway so why try to reinvent the horse.

    I asked Tom Wilkinson what he thought about 1 versus 1 1/18 loads and his comment was that he had done a lot of testing and he really thought you could be effective from the 27 with 1 ounce. The one caveat is that it has to be 6% antimony lead or it will not make it. The 3% shot will not pattern well enough to be consistent at the 27 and with the 3% you will really get a lot of holes in the pattern that will cause probable missed birds. He also thinks that one ounce may be better for the younger generation and the women
     
  15. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,864
    Thanks for making the call, Phil. Did they offer to help us write a rule and test suspect ammo? I've got a four-foot cube of Federal 118-7.5 (three dram papers.) Are these going to be legal?

    Neil
     
  16. perga1

    perga1 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,474
    Neil, with all those papers on hand (lucky dog) why not test them or call Fereral and ask them if they would average 1200 fps? Jim
     
  17. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,864
    I'll bet they will average close to that Jim. But the question is, how is the ATA going to find that out?

    Neil
     
  18. perga1

    perga1 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,474
    Faith Neil, Faith. Jim
     
  19. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,864
    I'm sure you are exactly right, Jim, but I was hoping for maybe something a little more concrete.

    Neil
     
  20. perga1

    perga1 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,474
    Concrete? We can't pour no more damn concrete. Jim
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Search tags for this page

phil kiner blog

,

phil kiner blog trap and field