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Performance of flush vs extended chokes?

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by Bruce Em, Aug 27, 2008.

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  1. Bruce Em

    Bruce Em Member

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    Hello,

    Interesting experience the other night. I usually use a Beretta with Optima chokes (extended) but I shot a Browning Citori Trap with the flush invectors and had a dissapointing session in relative terms.

    I went 3 rounds of trap with 3 different but proven loads and questioned the source of error. Was it POI difference or pattern quality? I was alternating between IM and F, or at least thats what the markings said (I havent measured these but the "mod" I have is really an IC).

    I did find that if I shot much quicker than usual, I scored hits leading me to a pattern density issue or permaps bad choke quality or label markings.

    The only other data point was the comments the other day that the optimas are better than the flush optimas so maybe the flush chokes arent as stiff as they could be and distort their shape and the pattern?

    Any thoughts?

    thanks!
     
  2. chipking

    chipking TS Member

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    Too many variables in your problem Bruce Em to say what the real issue is. My first guess is that the problem was a different gun and not the chokes themselves. Berettas and Brownings don't handle the same or shoot the same for most folks. You need to try your Beretta with both types or the Browning with both types and compare each guns performance to itself.

    Just my 2 pennies

    --- Chip King ---
     
  3. waverider

    waverider Well-Known Member

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    If the Browning chokes were actually Invector Plus chokes then the chokes are more open than what is now the industry standard. Browning designed the Invector Plus chokes to have the pattern percentages at 40 yards based on the table that was developed before plastic wads with shot-cups.

    Does your Browning Mod chokes gives you about 60% in a 30 inch circle at 40 yards?

    Jason
     
  4. SR1

    SR1 TS Member

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    Waverider I think you mean Invector not the Invector Plus. I have found that Browning chokes have alot of room for improvement.
     
  5. maclellan1911

    maclellan1911 TS Member

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    browning chokes are atad more open than you would think. all my browning chokes say full for lead or steal, now I have a invectorplus "hunting choke" cammo tipped. Says Full lead only. Leads me to think that the other is a tad more open. I see no difference between my flush mount and exstended midas chokes. BUT the Briley Spectrum IM out performs then both.
     
  6. 8 1/2 shot

    8 1/2 shot TS Member

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    I have found a good use for extended choke tubes. They protect the end of the barrel. Other than that I'm not sure why a person would need em.
     
  7. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    I have used factory flush chokes and have encountered dismal patterns and some POI inconsistencies with a few of them. Going to a decent aftermarket "flush" choke tube corrected most of the trouble, however, the extended tubes I just acquired have outperformed the aftermarket flush tubes I used previously. I can't say exactly what is at play, but the extended tubes have patterned as I would expect them to. The aftermarket flush tubes were a little disappointing, but significantly better than the factory tubes. I would not have experimented at all if the original flush tubes were satisfactory. I did measure the tubes and they were about what I would have expected, but the "fit" in the barrel is different and much better for the aftermarket tubes, both flush and extended.

    Different guns will shoot differently. It's hard to compare one with another and one way to attempt to measure this would be to pattern the guns and check the POI. I have had my eyes opened a few times and it was easy to explain some poor hits and misses. One choke tube put the pattern off by about 6" at 12 yards. Where it shot depended on where the choke tube ended up and how tight you made it. An aftermarket replacement put the POI dead on and improved the pattern considerably. I was just not satisfied with this, so had to try the extended "brand name" tubes. It was a good investment. It does take a lot of time to pattern a barrel and count pellets. I have seen some software that can count pellets in a picture, but I don't own a copy. I have used a high resolution photo and counted pellets within numbered partitions of a sectioned overlay applied with an image editing program. It takes a lot of time and by the time you've counted ten patterns, you've had enough for the day.

    When determining the choke, I measure the bore and the choke tubes and accept the difference as the amount of constriction. I then pattern the gun with the tubes and see what I get as far as percentages. The extended tubes were clearly the winner for pattern density within the 30" circle and for the even distribution of pellet hits. The question is, did it make a difference in my scores? Not that I could tell, I still shoot poorly, but it's not the gun's fault. :)
     
  8. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Bruce Em- I have frequently duplicated your results using the same gun and shells. Some days I shoot better than other days.

    In a 200 bird event, if I shoot a 98 on the first 100 with AA shells and then shoot a 91 on the second 100 with Remington shells, I would not think that the difference was due to the shells.

    Pat Ireland
     
  9. Bruce Em

    Bruce Em Member

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    Oh, and I neglected to add, ahem, I always shoot 7/8 oz 12 Ga loads. It has been a super performer for me in fixed chokes and the Beretta optimas

    I have broken 23 from the 27 yard line and usually run 23-24 and the dropped bird is my fault.

    But to miss so many, say 10, says something is wrong. I doubt it is a POI issue as I clearly see the target picture and the same presentation yields different results.

    I will measure the chokes and pattern this gun and let you know

    regards b
     
  10. krieghoffkrusher

    krieghoffkrusher TS Member

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    I don't think your experience has anything to do with the length of the choke tube. I think it's the difference between the two brands to be honest. Both make a fine gun, don't get me wrong but I think Beretta makes some of the best barrels and choke tubes in the business. My 682 patterns better than any Krieghoff I've owned.
     
  11. SirMissalott

    SirMissalott Active Member

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    I use extended primarily because its easier for me to read and tell what choke is in the gun. the eyes aren't what they used to be!!
     
  12. Bruce Em

    Bruce Em Member

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    I don't doubt the quality of the gun, just the quality and design of the choke tubes. Thinking more about this, I know, dangerous, leads me to key control parameters of choke wall thickness, hardness, and the clearance between the choke and the barel it fits into. Think about a steel ball passing down a rubber hose. The hose expands as the ball passes. Not the best analogy but lower tensile strength tubes or even the lack of an external stiffening ring may allow the choke tube to expand radially as the load hits it. Effectively opening the choke up.

    I won't know till I pattern it but it would almost put money on thats what happening. Gonna look into externals for the Beretta 20 ga as well.

    best regards
    ps Who makes better, or best grade aftermarket chokes please?
     
  13. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    Briley is reasonable and fairly well made. There are others, but they can get pricy with little increase in performance.
     
  14. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    I have had my best results with bore matched Angleport extended chokes.

    The Brownings are spec'd loose in case one runs large steel shot through a tight choke.

    I have Angleport Forties in my Browning Unsingle and O/U Combo. I get better breaks with this gun than any I have had with screw chokes.

    I have a Perazzi Bunker gun with tricked and fixed "incredibly tight" and "even more incredibly tight" chokes that may hit a bird harder than any gun I have ever had. If I am on my game, it leaves no visible piece. The Angleport forties are close in performance, to be production chokes in production barrels.

    I have had the Brileys, but sold them when I tried the Angleports. Try them.
     
  15. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    If I could randomly change the choke tubes in another shooters gun (mod, I mod, light full, full chokes)between shots, I doubt that the average shooter could tell any difference. I am not a strong supporter in changing tubes for singles, handicap and doubles.

    I did change tubes when I first got my K-80 many years ago. But, I had trouble reading the markings on each tube, I would forget to change them and discovered I had used a tube other than I intended and I found that it made little difference. Now, I do take the tube out of my single barrel about once every three years. After I look at it and lube the threads, I put it back in for another three years.

    We often spend a lot of time thinking about the minor points of shooting trap and ignore the important things. Possibly we do this because it is easier to change a choke tube than it is to keep your head down and see the target at the same time.

    Pat Ireland
     
  16. racer

    racer TS Member

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    Bruce Em - I suspect you are very young or a very inexperienced shooter- nothing wrong with either. Trap shooting like most hobbies has "something" for everyone. There are hundreds of combinations of things to play with(chokes,shells,guns,glasses etc. etc)if that is the part of the hobby you enjoy. Please be mindful that none of that puts lead on targets. The basics will win out for most shooters most of the time. Good form, good fit, good practice = good scores. The other parts of the sport have a very deminished return on effort vs. score. Which ever part you enjoy more, have fun. Dan
     
  17. rrose

    rrose TS Member

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    Bruce;
    I have found the Browning flush tubes do not pattern well at all, much more open that they should be which leads to lost targets. I went to Briley extended and they were much much better, then went to Comp N Choke extended and they pattern better for me than the Briley extended. I do not like the porting in the Comp N Choke but they do pattern better so I will put up with cleaning the ports. Your results may vary but for me I am done with any other tubes.
    Randy
     
  18. Bruce Em

    Bruce Em Member

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    Thanks guys I appreciate the help. FWIW, I started shooting trap 33 years ago.
    I took a few years off until Lloyd Woodhouse, at the Olympic Training Center, talked me back into shooting again.

    I also shoot international, sporting, 5 stand, and skeet. Mostly gun down. I have a bunch of quality shotguns that I have had excellent scores with but this Browning was a new acquisition, mostly a lark, and the performance was stunningly, and consistently poor. I do like Brownings but I see why this one was sold off in almost 100% condition.

    I never paid attention to aftermarket chokes before because it wasn't an issue with all the other guns I use. I will try some of your recommendations on tubes. I will have to look into some extended Beretta 20 ga mobil chokes as well.

    best regards
     
  19. huskers

    huskers TS Member

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    I first want to say I'm new to the site and the sport as a whole but here it goes anyway. Not knowing anything, about Beretta firearms, are you talking a automatic verses a break action. Being new to reloading as well I would think a auto would produce a lesser muzzle FPS than a break due to the gases needed to work the action. Could this be another condition that could cause variations? I'm just wondering. By the way, I am a redneck and don't spell well or use proper english. I'm also asking if you all are saying not to use factory choke tudes. Just another question is all and I might have asked that wrong. Don't know how to type well anyhow. Jason W.
     
  20. Bruce Em

    Bruce Em Member

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    Thanks guys I appreciate the help. FWIW, I started shooting trap 33 years ago.
    I took a few years off until Lloyd Woodhouse, at the Olympic Training Center, talked me back into shooting again.

    I also shoot international, sporting, 5 stand, and skeet. Mostly gun down. I have a bunch of quality shotguns that I have had excellent scores with but this Browning was a new acquisition, mostly a lark, and the performance was stunningly, and consistently poor. I do like Brownings but I see why this one was sold off in almost 100% condition.

    I never paid attention to aftermarket chokes before because it wasn't an issue with all the other guns I use. I will try some of your recommendations on tubes. I will have to look into some extended Beretta 20 ga mobil chokes as well.

    best regards
     
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