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Perceived Recoil, yes and no

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by mrskeet410, Jul 4, 2007.

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  1. mrskeet410

    mrskeet410 TS Member

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    Perceived Recoil? That is perceived recoil vis-à-vis free recoil, or calculated recoil, or total recoil? Interesting question. I’d have to say there is a difference in some cases and not in others. And just because it is true in some circumstances doesn’t mean it is true in all circumstances.

    Where have I experienced the difference? My 1100 kicks less than an O/U of similar weight or even an A-5. I had an L.C. Smith with very crooked and short stock that kicked much less after I had a straighter and longer stock made for it. Even my 1100 has more perceived recoil when I mount it against my nose as compared to mounting it firmly against my shoulder. The free recoil is the same in all those cases. I doubt if anyone here has not had a similar experience.

    But I am unconvinced that ammo with the same payload and velocity, leaving the same gun, have different perceived recoil due to powder choice, or wad choice, or primer choice, or color of hull. I’ve never witnessed or read of anyone that could pick shells with Powder X from shells with Powder Y when subjected to even a crude blind test.

    Even the myth of paper ammo kicking less is quickly debunked when the magic low-recoil loads are shot over a chronograph.
     
  2. Pull & Mark

    Pull & Mark Well-Known Member

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    Mr Skeet410, I have never heard of paper shells having less recoil? I have heard that they pattern better than plastic shells!! But I have not heard about the recoil until now. I agree with the fact that the recoil is the same, if payload and speed is the same with a slow burning powder as compared with a fast burning powder in same gun. That said some people might say different after 200 or 300 shells in one day, say at the very end of the day or the next morning. Break-em all Jeff
     
  3. mrskeet410

    mrskeet410 TS Member

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  4. Straight99

    Straight99 Member

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    Stock fit has more to do with felt recoil than anything else. It took me 40 years of putting up with recoil before I went and got a trap gun with a custom stock. Now there is no recoil to even notice. I had Kolar make me a T/S and they really know what they are doing. If you can afford a custom stock its the only way to go. Glenn
     
  5. shot410ga

    shot410ga Well-Known Member

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    Perceived Recoil is in the body of the shooter, as is beauty in the eyes of the of the beholder. Another-wise, no such thing!!!
     
  6. maclellan1911

    maclellan1911 TS Member

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    When using ear plugs and muff together, I precieve less recoil. Especially with MAX dram loads.
     
  7. mrskeet410

    mrskeet410 TS Member

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    maclellan1911 - "When using ear plugs and muff together, I precieve less recoil."

    I learned that was true firing magnum rifles from a bench with a tin-roof sun-shield.
     
  8. jnoemanh

    jnoemanh TS Member

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    The 1100 actually does deliver a bit less recoil than an O/U. Gas bleeds off the two ports at the bottom of the barrel and pushes back to open the action. At the same time, that gas pressure is pushing forward against the barrel, and somewhat counteracting the rearward recoil. The recoil operated A5 pushes the bolt (and barrel) back with only rearward pressure.
     
  9. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    mrskeet410, quote: ".....I am unconvinced that ammo with the same payload and velocity, leaving the same gun, have different perceived recoil due to powder choice, or wad choice, or primer choice, or color of hull. I’ve never witnessed or read of anyone that could pick shells with Powder X from shells with Powder Y when subjected to even a crude blind test."<br>
    <br>
    Apparently you've never shot blackpowder cartridges or shotshells.<br>
    <br>
    If you take a smokeless and a blackpowder load with the same exact payload and velocity, and fired them from the same gun - you'd find the blackpowder loads have substantially more kick.<br>
    <br>
    In fact, the 1916 Winchester catalog states that the free recoil of a 12ga 3-1/4 dram 1-1/4 ounce shotshell in a Winchester repeating shotgun (presumably a Model 12) is 28 ft lbs for smokeless and 31.5 ft lbs for blackpowder. A 45-70 with the 405gr carbine bullet at 1317 fps (similar to the factory Remington 405gr load of today) will have a free recoil of 12.27 smokeless and 16.24 blackpowder (the firearm was not specified but I believe it would be an 1886 lever action by doing the math).<br>
    <br>
    The reason for this is that blackpowder is slower to burn than smokeless, even though it is an explosive, not a propellant. Thus, some of the blackpowder is blown ahead of the cartridge case, and burns in the barrel. Some of its mass therefore must be added to the weight of the bullet and wad(s) to get a true idea of the free recoil. Indeed, for those recoil formulas that use a gas constant, the gas constant figure for blackpowder is quite a it different from smokeless.<br>
    <br>
    As for smokeless powder, each powder has a different burning rate. Therefore each powder will have a slightly different gas constant. Because most smokeless powder falls within the same range, the gas constant is usually averaged out for all smokeless powder - one gas constant fits all, so to speak. But for absolute accuracy, yes, the gas constant is different and yes, it will produce a different free recoil figure. It is absolutely true that that different powders will have different recoil.<br>
    <br>
    HOWEVER, from a PRACTICAL standpoint, I doubt anyone is going to feel this differnce between two or three powders with similar burning rates. The gas constant is not changed significantly enough to have any meaningful bearing on the equation. BUT, if you're comparing a very fast smokeless powder to a very slow powder, yes, there is a slight difference that SOME people can feel.<br>
    <br>
    Example, there is quite a difference with 4759 compared to other smokeless powders. 4759 is often used by those shooting obsolete blackpowder cartridges. The increased recoil from this powder can be felt when compared to some of the faster powders used in the 45-70.
     
  10. Ahab

    Ahab Well-Known Member

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    The biggest factor in percieved recoil is stock fit!

    Look at the 3 shotguns, top one kicks like a mule, middle one is mild in the kick department....but the bottom one with the high comb and rib has to be a pussycat no mater what you screw into the chamber!
     
  11. mrskeet410

    mrskeet410 TS Member

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    Brian - I have no experience with blackpowder shotgun. My blackpowder experience is limted to muzzleloader rifles. They seem to kick less than I would expect.
     
  12. maclellan1911

    maclellan1911 TS Member

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    410, I recently shot out of a bunker style range, in braintree ma. My muffs did not cut it, My head hurts just remembering. Next time I go im wearing plugs muffs and a helmet filled and surounded with that sound reducing foam with the odd shapes on it.
     
  13. oletymer

    oletymer Member

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    Piddie, I believe you have just become the moron of posters. Your stuff is almost beyond belief.
     
  14. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Total recoil and perceived recoil are nearly unrelated to each other. It is true that one person shooting one gun will normally perceive more recoil when changing from light loads to heavy handicap loads on the trap line. But, light 16 yard shells will typically produce more perceived recoil than heavy goose loads shot from a blind.

    Pat Ireland
     
  15. smartass

    smartass TS Member

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    Piddie, that was very perceptive of you. With your expertise, maybe you should consider writing a book on stock fitting.
     
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