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Perazzi question - Nickel vrs. silver nitride

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by dr.beav, Jun 25, 2009.

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  1. dr.beav

    dr.beav Member

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    Hey you Perazzi Guys - what is the difference between a nickel plated frame and a frame described as silver nitride (nitrate??) - I have seen Perazzi's using both phrases in their descriptions. Then, who can do a good job turning a case hardened receiver into a silver ???? receiver? the beav
     
  2. dr.beav

    dr.beav Member

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    bump - still looking for discussion of differences
     
  3. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    when worse comes to worse, contact Giacomo's about it... They will give you an honest answer..
     
  4. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Nickel plating results in a thin layer of nickel on the surface. It is done electronically. Nickle nitrating is an etching process where the nickle actually penetrates very slightly into the surface of the metal. It is an oxidization process.

    Pat Ireland
     
  5. happy

    happy Member

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    I will recomend the nitrate from Giacomo. Had mine done 2years ago. He did all the parts on the reciever and the forearm. great job and no maitenece ever again. Norm
     
  6. smoky

    smoky Member

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    hey norm, maybe you ought to have that piece of wire holding your rib on, nitrated also. scott
     
  7. dr.beav

    dr.beav Member

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    Hey Guys - great - it sounds like Giacomo does nickel nitrating as well as electroless nickel plating - and it sounds like the nickel nitrating is far more durable than plating?? Thank you for all the responses. Are there others that do nickel nitrating besides Giacomo?? the beav
     
  8. GunDr

    GunDr Well-Known Member

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    There's no such thing a silver nitriding. Nickel plating is plating on the steel. Nitriding is a heat treating process, though similar to case hardening, it is done in a controled enviroment.

    The newer Brownings are nitrided. When the parts are removed from the oven, they are then polished bright. The surface of the steel has a more, but still limited, protection from the elements vs the untreated steel.

    Doug
     
  9. dr.beav

    dr.beav Member

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    Doug: Glad you added some claity to this question - now, isn't there something called electroless nickel plating that etches the nickel to the metal? And, isn't electroless considered superior these days for wear?? the beav (by the way, the MX-3 of yours that was on here the other day was beautiful - great job!!!)
     
  10. GunDr

    GunDr Well-Known Member

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    Electroless nickel is the preferred nickel plating method, but that just doesn't end there.

    There are generally two types of plating, "low phosphorus" and "high phosphorus". Of those two, the high phosphorus is much superior,and it also tends to be a little more costly.

    As with most of the gunsmith in the country, it's very highly unlikely that any of us actually do the plating, including Giacomo. What does seperate some from others is how we prep the metal prior to the plating..ie cleaning of all grease and grime, chamfering all the sharp edges, and beadblasting with the correct sized media, and the quality control the plating company has for their process. As for the quality of the plating, other additives to the plating allow for lubricity and flexibility. This is important, if the plating is to brittle or too thick, cracking and peeling is possible.

    While I was researching plating companies 15 yrs ago, I had samples from 7-8 different platers from around the country and then ran a few tests (while I was at Kolar Arms)to determine the durability.

    I applied almost every type of gun lube to the surfaces to test for staining and if it would etch into the plating. Some did stain and tarnish. I also left the samples outside to weather the elements for about a month, and a few more failed....showed blistering. I finally settle on one company and have been way more than satisfied with them since.

    One test I did not do was the Hoppes #9 test. Colt Firearms years ago had a blistering problem showing up on many of their plated handguns. Their tests showed Hoppes #9 was the culprit. So I just assume that it would be the same with any plating. So, just keep the Hoppes for cleaning the bores, not as a protectant on the whole gun.

    You definitely cannot go wrong having Giacomo (Dan) do the plating for you, but don't forget about me. We both take a lot of pride in providing the best quality of product as possible.

    One last thing...this is nickel plating NOT silver nitriding. There is no such thing as silver nitriding....What is found on Browings is highly likely "ION Nitriding". The term silver nitriding is Browning's description.

    Doug Braker
     
  11. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Doug- Help me a little. Silver nitrate is a widely used compound (AgNO3). A metal in an acidic solution would cause oxidation (loss of electrons) and this should attract some of the ionized silver (Ag+) onto the metal. I know that AgNO3 has a relatively low ionization constant, but it would still have some free Ag+ ions floating around.

    Pat Ireland
     
  12. dr.beav

    dr.beav Member

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    Bump - hey this is good stuff - thanks a lot. the beav
     
  13. dr.beav

    dr.beav Member

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    Just to add to the confusion - I have noticed major destributors like Pacific Sporting will list their Kreighoff guns differently - one will be called nickel finished, and the next will be called Nitride finished - particularely "Scroll Nitride". And, if you look at them they do appear to have a different shine to them -- is it possible that Kreighoff has both - or are the pictures just different lighting?? the beav
     
  14. dr.beav

    dr.beav Member

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    Okay - last question - I asked it in my first question above - can you put electroless nickel on one of the Perazzi case hardened receivers? the beav
     
  15. GunDr

    GunDr Well-Known Member

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    Yes, nickel can be applied to a case-colored receiver. There can be a small little "catch" to having it look absolutely perfect.

    Because of the hardening process Perazzi uses/used, each of those different little colors each have a different degree of hardness. So during the glass-bead metal prep, the glass bead will strike each spot will a small, subtle, difference. You really cannot see it after the metal prep, but once nickeled, you may still see those lines running around the receiver when the light hits the sides just right.

    I have tried aluminum oxide for a little better "bite", and it did do a nice job of concealing the lines, but I didn't care for the much duller look to the nickel.
     
  16. GunDr

    GunDr Well-Known Member

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    Pat,

    I have been doing some research on different types of nitriding, especially the type Beretta had used. I haven't seen any of the Krieghoffs yet with the nitriding , but Im guessing it may be similar to Beretta's.

    It appears that nitriding has kicked into another higher gear, and a lot of new things have developed over the last ten years.

    I'm not going to doubt you one bit with the silver nitriding you had mentioned. It very well can be out there. I know that it is not what Browning uses, but many/most refer to it that way. I've spoken with Art's several times when I got started into this plating deal, and he explained the process to me.

    Doug
     
  17. whiz white

    whiz white Strong Supporter of Trapshooting Banned

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    I had A&A Engraving of Rapid City, SD did one for me. A&A is the company that does all those fancy commeratives you see in the Americal Rifleman like the John Wayne, Richard Petty, etc.

    Mark, the owner, did a Perazzi receiver for me in satin chrome. A VERY HARD plating, and Mark was initially reluctant to do one. However, the results were fantastic! I get the satin nickle look in a hard chrome.

    This receiver is on my pet gun and I have shot it for well over 15 years. The finish it like it was the day I had it done.

    He does not do this any longer because his company is so busy.

    Whiz
     
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