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?????? Perazzi Choke ?????????????????

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by vdt, Sep 13, 2012.

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  1. vdt

    vdt Active Member

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    how many choke generations does,or has Perazzi had
     
  2. Steve W

    Steve W Well-Known Member

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    4 in regular production as Perazzi was referring to. Or when you ordering one without having examples on hand.

    The 4th generation (current) chokes came in 18.4 mm bore, 18.7 mm, & 18.8 mm. Flush or extended.

    * The kind of choke tubes in the bottom barrel of Ennio Mattarelli's gun he used in the '68 Olympics were pre-1st generation chokes.
     
  3. Gapper

    Gapper TS Member

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    Vdt, At least five generations. Of the original knurled type with the treads at the top near the muzzle, there are two distinct types- before '76 and after. The factory built choke-tube guns from the beginning (1965).

    Lots of confusion out there; basically the first generation of chokes came with guns from 1965 to 1975. Next generation was '76 to '81, then '82 to 199?, and so on. Then they started with flush or extended, then the same type chokes in standard and overbored barrels. Is it any wonder there are problems?

    I believe the confusion started when Perazzi modified the original design by making it very slightly larger in 1976 with the MT-6 guns, which apparently confuses people as they look almost identical to each other, but the post '75 chokes are slightly larger in every dimension. No one noticed the difference, and unless one holds the two chokes in hand at the same time, it's tough to see the small difference.

    No big deal, just try to be discriptive when ordering chokes.

    To be technically correct, there can be no such thing as "pre 1st generation".

    It would be an oxymoron. How very apropos.

    Regards, GAP
     
  4. vdt

    vdt Active Member

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  5. EuroJoe

    EuroJoe TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    If you're smart, you'll listen to STEVE W
     
  6. Gapper

    Gapper TS Member

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    If you're smart, you'll use all the information available to get the correct tube for your gun.
     
  7. semperfi909

    semperfi909 Well-Known Member

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    here are pre-1gen, 1gen, 2gen



    There was an extended discussion of this some time ago and I provided this info then


    HTH
     
  8. EuroJoe

    EuroJoe TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    The gen 1-4 were/are regular production chokes, the earlier ones were special ordered, hence the s/n on them.
     
  9. semperfi909

    semperfi909 Well-Known Member

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    As you can see in the pic the S1 has a serial as well. All of S1 choked guns here have serials on the tubes.
     
  10. Gapper

    Gapper TS Member

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    The gen 1-4 were/are regular production chokes, the 1st generation were hand fit to the gun for better performance, hence the serial number on them.
     
  11. Steve W

    Steve W Well-Known Member

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    Through out the years, people refer to Perazzi chokes with different names. Briley for example, use it's own interpretation, but showing pictures on their web site, so people can go buy what they want.

    You can call these small metal tubes whatever you like, but my information was based on factory reference so it's easier for owners to be on the same page when you do trading. I've never heard anyone asked for a 5th generation choke. It's perfectly fine if you want to refer the current factory chokes as 5th generation, as long as people understand you. Perazzi certainly will not argue with you, they'll simply ask you what kind.

    JFYR, here're the 4 generations of "regular production" factory chokes commonly traded on the market:


    stevew_2008_03033.jpg

    stevew_2008_030359.jpg


    And my special thanks to semperfi909 for posting the pre-1st generation chokes (which I never owned) to complete this thread. Appreciated.
     
  12. Gapper

    Gapper TS Member

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    There are in fact at least five generations of Perazzi choke tubes in "regular production". The Perazzi factory doesn't refer to chokes by "generation number" or "type number"; they just give the correct choke for the gun.

    The factory regularly produced chokes from the beginning. As a matter of fact one of the original partners of Perazzi, name Ennio Matterelli, was awarded a patent for the screw-in choke tubes that are common on today's guns. Perazzi found that interchangable chokes added a lot of work to building a gun, and did not add a worthwhile performance increase for dedicated trap or skeet shooting. Not a lot were made or advertised.

    Around the mid 1970's choke tubes were becoming more popular, and were something potential customers asked for, so Perazzi released the MT-6, and the "comp IV", mainly for the appetites of American shooters, and Ithaca Gun co., the U.S. importer at the time.

    Because of Ithaca's marketing the MT-6 as the the latest thing, many folks incorrectly assumed it was the first perazzi O/U with choke tubes, and that incorrect assumption is still oft' repeated even today.


    The MT-6 was The first "regular production" Perazzi with tubes in both barrels, prior to that Perazzi only choked bottom barrels with regularity, only a few were double choked.

    What can I say? People goof up. When folks want to be admired for their expertise, they are loath to admit a mistake. Truth is universal and wins out in time, those tricksters using semantics fade with the past.

    If anyone doubts these "type one" bottom choke tube guns exist in quantity, there is one on gun broker right now. For 5 large you can put yo'self in exclusive company. GAP
     
  13. semperfi909

    semperfi909 Well-Known Member

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    I'm puzzled as to why this has taken on contentious tones. So the earliest chokes were not an "on the shelf" item and were "special ordered". BFD! That was the situation for years, if not a couple decades 'cept for the MT6. Why does that need to be argued about?!?!? EVERY Mirage was "special ordered", that's why it was called Mirage.

    And there were 5 types and WGAF what you call them? VDT asks how many there are and now he has that info and pix to match.

    BTW - I searched for that earlier discussion and came up w/ zip. If someone else can find it I appreciate knowing.

    As mentioned in that earlier thread I currently have two guns w/ the earliest style tubes, a Mirage pigeon gun and an MX8 that was maybe also a pigeon gun. Best as I know none of the muzzle end threaded tubes are any longer available from Perazzi

    Charlie

    PS - Steve, you're perfectly welcome - as always. And that bbl I got from you some time ago still has a happy home here {;-)
     
  14. Peter Sinclare

    Peter Sinclare Active Member

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    Why would someone got so excited about how you call a choke? Are you writing a book (maybe you should) and want everyone to agree with you?

    You can speak Latin if you feel proud of it, but would it be easier to speak simple English in this country so most people can understand you?

    I don't know about you, but for me I never had any problem buying from others with 4 generations of chokes.

    "What can I say? People goof up. When folks want to be admired for their expertise, they are loath to admit a mistake." from Gapper's statement is a little too personal in my book. Who were you referring to?
     
  15. Gapper

    Gapper TS Member

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    Guess it'll start another argument, but the "mirage" was a regular production, regular catalog gun. It was originally the same as the other SC/MX guns, with two exceptions. The Original MX-8 was not available in skeet configuration. With the original MX-8, it was all about the barrels and rib: Trap choked, stepped-parallel rib. The Mirage though, it was different; it came with a tapered rib that tended to "disappear from view", therefore it was dubbed the "mirage". It also became the skeet/pigeon variation. Lippard's explanation of "mirage" is they were special order, but they were regularly produced from 1969 or '70 I believe.

    Whatever.

    It's really no big deal, but I think most guys on here try to be helpful. If a man comes here for info, finds he supposedly has one variant of choke, calls Briley or Teague, etc. he gets the wrong item. Not a huge deal but . . . .

    . . . who profits?

    In speaking or writing of technical things, it's important to be "technically correct" or the product suffers. Yeah, Pete, I goof up all the time. I admit it. My writing is for the most part english, but most language is derived from others, including latin. Most people can understand it, but you can google the big words if your reading comprehension skills are lacking. My statement about
    "expertise" is general in nature, and can apply to anyone, including myself. But when people backpedal from non-existent to early prototype, to pre-production to early- production to pre-generation one, just to save face, how will this help discovery?

    I ask, what have I written that is untrue? GAP
     
  16. Peter Sinclare

    Peter Sinclare Active Member

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    It's fine, so you insist we should call the chokes in my MX-2000 5th generation. Is this what you are arguing about?

    My only problem is I am not sure most people will understand if I told them the chokes in my MX-2000 are not 4th but 5th generation.

    Only when, if, I ever buy chokes from you, I'll make sure I'll say 5th generation.
     
  17. Gapper

    Gapper TS Member

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    I do not insist anything, but I'm glad to see you're on-board with helping your fellow shooters. You are undoubtedly a good man. It's certainly a refreshing change of pace from many of the ne'er-do-wells and shills that abound.

    So sorry, I don't sell chokes, but if you know of anyone selling the type . . . gener . . . er . . .

    . . . nevermind.
     
  18. Steve W

    Steve W Well-Known Member

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    I apologize IF I ever mislead my friends with false information, but I have to state this information was straight from Mr. Daniele Perazzi himself during our conversations regarding Perazzi updates, including type III and type IV forend over lapping receiver changes.

    This was Daniele's own statement about factory production chokes: The chokes in Ennio Mattarelli's gun he used in the '68 Olympics were experimental, there're no demand for choke tubes at the time, they only made interchangeable choke tubes upon request. Lots of work, mostly by hand, many failures. POI was a problem at the time, were all his own words. And not only they don't sell choke tubes by itself, it's somewhat dangerous to change chokes from different guns at the time. This was NOT a regular production item.

    My further question was what you call the current chokes in my '99 SCO that he picked the wood for me? Daniele said: Fourth. with 4 fingers straight from his hand. Mind you, he was in perfect shape at the time.

    I think I'm pretty safe to conclude my understanding from the man, there're 4 generations of factory production chokes in Perazzi line as of 1999.

    So far, Perazzi hasn't change their production choke tubes except different bore sizes and extended ones.

    I wouldn't get into another argument about Mirage or anything else. All my informations were based on personal discussion with Daniele, Mauro, Lucio, and Karl, or the old hand written factory log books.

    vdt, hope you got your answer. If I, or anyone else confuses you, I apologize.
     
  19. Gapper

    Gapper TS Member

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    That's great information Steve, I thank you for it. The hand work involved in those early guns speaks for itself, as does the the fact they are serialed to the gun. The fellows fortunate enough to own these guns knew as much a long time ago. Most shooters didn't even know they existed. The least I could do is bring the information to light.

    It's great when we can get together and solve mysteries as to why these chokes were and are still misnomered, why the confusion, and to why great companies like Briley's and Stu Wright's have different terminology for the same product.

    It's no secret Daniele disliked choke tubes, and the with the production problems involved back then, maybe he would rather forget about it. He should be proud, for by forging ahead he was able to aquire the knowledge to make tubes with better interchangeability, reliability, and performance.

    A lot changed between '68 and '75, going from "no demand" (hard to believe) to enough demand to upgrade the TM-1 with chokes, and developing and marketing a completely new model, the MT-6. Of course they saw the writing on the wall, so they were building guns during the early '70's to gauge reliability and customer acceptance. Winchester had been trying to get tube guns out as early as 1959, and finally succeeded in a big way by 1970.

    The way I have it, after the first few choke tube mirages came though, top shooters got wind of them, but were told to wait. Daniele insisted that the choke tube guns were NOT TO BE CATALOGUED by Ithaca, because he could not make them quickly, and didn't want to be inundated with demand for orders he couldn't fill. And Ithaca wasn't going to advertise a gun they had difficulty getting. He made as many as he felt he could, without compromising quality. Time stands still for no man, customer "requests" were being made at an ever increasing rate, so compromise they did with the MT-6. Barrel regulation issues abounded, and it quickly fell out of favor with top shooters. Amazing.

    So there really are 5 generations of chokes in guns sold to the public, four of which you say the factory considers regular factory production, or to my knowledge four generations of regular catalogued type chokes in tubed guns. I guess the early '70's tubed guns were "factory optioned regular production guns".

    Now armed with more facts, Perazzi shooters have an even better chance of finding the correct tube for their gun. GAP
     
  20. semperfi909

    semperfi909 Well-Known Member

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    "That's great information Steve, I thank you for it. The hand work involved in those early guns speaks for itself, as does the the fact they are serialed to the gun. The fellows fortunate enough to own these guns knew as much a long time ago. Most shooters didn't even know they existed. The least I could do is bring the information to light."

    Notes from an inquiring mind and not intended to be contentious:

    As I mentioned before, there are a couple of guns at my place that have 1gen, post-73, choke tubes that are serialed - three to each gun all w/ serials. The serials certainly did not cease w/ the introduction of a "standard" tubed bbl.

    And just what info was it that you brought to light that has not been discussed at length here before? I may be wrong, but I don't recall your handle being in the discussion several mo ago that went thru all that has been gone thru again this time.

    And AFA Mirages go, I'm sure I haven't seen every variation but I currently have five (1973 t0 1978)and no two are alike - least of all the "vanishing" rib. Not that MX8's can't do the same thing. Best as I can tell from looking around, Perazzi would make anything and put whatever name on it if the buyer had the $. As I have mentioned before, my wife's gun is a MX8, 1985, cc, 75cm bbls both w/ factory 2gen tubes and a rib that is flat on the bbls. The logo is in gold on the side of the action and all #'s match the proof date. Not very MX8ish tho.


    have a day

    Charlie

    I'd still like to see someone recover that previous thread - it just will not come up for me TIA if it happens
     
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