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Perazzi broken flat hammer springs (part 2)

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by tractorboy, Apr 7, 2013.

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  1. tractorboy

    tractorboy Member

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    tractorboy_2008_03037.jpg

    Right and left Perazzi flat hammer springs. I broke the right side (top picture) about a month ago and broke the left side (bottom picture) spring yesterday. Each spring broke after it had fired about 10,000 shells. Interesting that they both broke at the same location near the mounting pin.

    From what I have learned from other Perazzi owners, this is normal behavior that the spring breaks at the mounting pin. Perhaps the manufacturing process of forming the mounting pin introduces a weak point in the spring.

    I know that some Perazzi owners are using an after market universal flat spring that uses a separate mounting pin and the spring can be used on either left or right side. My question is for Universal spring users: Have you broken a spring yet? How many shells before the spring broke?
     
  2. whiz white

    whiz white Strong Supporter of Trapshooting Banned

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    10,000 rounds is pretty good for a set of leaf springs.

    The spring should break at the point shown, because as the spring is sprung, it vibrates and the pin is the point where the vibration normally stops... because this is where it rests in the housing.

    Just like changing oil in your car, springs begin to lose their tension the first moment they are compressed and sprung, and eventualy should be replaced. You're talking about $44 a spring over 10,000 rounds. That cost is insignificant in the scheme of things.

    I have always changed my springs annually or prior when I was shooting heavily. I preferred to have a new set installed rather than have one fail during a competitive event, although it was not a big deal if it did. My traveling squads though nothing about stopping and waiting for one to be reinserted.

    Perazzi's are designed to be shot and shot a helluva lot, AND they are designed to be easily brought back to new specs with parts. This is probably the reason 12 of the 15 medals won during the past Olympics were with Perazzi's. Take Kim Rhode's Perazz for instance. Now that is one old, old Perazzi that just keeps her winning.

    IMHO.

    WW
     
  3. tractorboy

    tractorboy Member

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    The Unloader said: "I BROKE A "NEW" SPRING~~~2ND SHOT ON DOUBLES !!!~~~NEW AND ONLY GOOD FOR 1 SHOT !!!!"

    The spring that you broke after one shot...was it the universal type or the original style?
     
  4. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    Big deal. I think flat springs are the way to go but as long as a side pin/receiver, perpendicular from the travel of the spring, is used to hold it in place, there is going to be stress there and they're going to break there.

    Mister Perazzi wanted the best possible performance and CONSISTENCY out of his Competition drop out trigger. He could have chosen coil springs but that doesn't lead to the kind of consistency he envisioned. Both types of springs change tension over time but the flats stay more consistent over their life ... so he chose flats and made them very easy to change by design. He knew they would break more often but he didn't want to compromise consistency.

    What Pgun detractors like to do is to take shots at the flat springs as a flaw. Mr. Perazzi saw them as a preferred compromise. They are still the best way to power a trigger's hammer based on his vision.

    I once had a discussion with Mr. Perazzi about his decisions and his design hero was Enzo Ferrari. They had a lot in common. Both wanted to offer a product that gave optimum race/tournament performance in a package that could be fixed easily (everything breaks) quickly to get them back on the line/track. Both men succeeded.

    My choice is to have a gun that I can keep running without having to take it to the factory gunsmiths to replace a spring or do an annual just to maintain optimum consistency. The other guys made other choices and that's perfectly fine. I just happen to think Mr. Perazzi was right.
     
  5. decimamas 54

    decimamas 54 Active Member

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    I don't know if the "new" spring that UNLOADER is talking about is mine or belong to the others Companies but my experience on this problem teach me that, often, the reasons of breakage of the springs are not how the spring is made but how the spring works inside the trigger.
    At the beginning my thought was that if we take the side pin out the problem of breaking springs were been history but I realized with the time that even without the pin the problem of broken spring persists. The positive thing about a spring without a pin is that you only have to carry one spare and it's faster than the original.
    I and my staff are working around this problem to resolve it definitely for a long time and we find a solution but it's very expensive to make it and to commercialize it. Let's be practical: nobody will pay $ 110.00 USD for one unbreakable spring because with that kind of money you can buy #3 springs and they will last long time.
    We try to give you the best for your money and for that reason I guarantee my springs for one year against the breakage and I sure you that we use the best materials available on the market with a combination of a lot of years of experience of making springs. MARCELLO GIULIANI
     
  6. tractorboy

    tractorboy Member

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    "I don't know if the "new" spring that UNLOADER is talking about is mine or belong to the others Companies"

    When UNLOADER said ginuine Perazzi, I took him to mean that the spring was a genuine Perazzi spring with the built in side mounting pin. The type of breakage that I have seen on the two springs that I have broken in my gun leads me to believe that as the spring is compressed there is a high stress point at the mounting pin.

    The Universal spring concept seems more robust to me, from a mechanical engineering perspectve, because the spring essentially rides on an axel that supports the spring and distributes the mechanical stresses more evenly over the spring.


    What I am hoping is that someone who is using the UNIVERSAL spring that has a separate mounting pin would tell us of their experience.
     
  7. Perazzi_MX8

    Perazzi_MX8 Well-Known Member

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    The cost of a new spring for my Perazzi is stressing me out. I swear, I may have to ground my Gulfstream and perhaps fly commercial. It might be that if both of them broke I'd have to start reloading and use reclaimed shot! YIKES
     
  8. Ed Y

    Ed Y TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    I have a pair of Marchello's springs in one of my Precision MX triggers and one of Jim Coons' new style in my TM trigger. Can't tell you how long they last because I haven't been able to break one. I'm beginning to wonder why I bought a couple of spares.

    Ed Yanchok
     
  9. tractorboy

    tractorboy Member

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    "The cost of a new spring for my Perazzi is stressing me out."

    I'm not complaining about spending $100 every 2 years to replace springs. I agree with Jim White that the Perazzi is the finest and best designed target gun ever manufactured (and best balanced and most pointable, also). The gun was designed to stand up to the rigors of Olympic training where it is common to put 100,000 to 200,000 shells through a gun in a year.

    What I want to know, however, is how is the UNIVERSAL spring holding up in extended use. Hopefully, someone who is using it will come on here and tell us.
     
  10. drgondog

    drgondog Member

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    Does anybody have a set of Type 1 springs? Mine is only45 years old and I'm feeling vulnerable..
     
  11. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    I have both. The Giuliani springs and Jim Coon's springs. They have similar mounting hardware that fits permanently in one of the original Perazzi trigger's spring holes. There is no need for two different springs with either design anymore and both springs mount OVER the pins.

    There is much less stress on the spring without all that "wallowing" around that the P springs' pins do in their respective mounting holes.

    I look for Perazzi to come out with a conversion of their own but I'm happy with the Precision and Giuliani springs and have no reason to change.

    I would like to find a gauge to test these springs as they age. So far, I haven't needed to replace ANY broken springs since I made the changes.

    One other thing. Other than mounting ... these springs are not identical in design and, with time one may prove to be more durable than the other but for now I don't have enough rounds on them to know. I have more than 15K rounds on the Giuliani's in my OU's bottom barrel and it seems to be like the day I installed it. If I had a spring tension gauge I could tell you more about tension degradation.
     
  12. jdsfarms

    jdsfarms Well-Known Member

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    I've been a mechanic for 35 years all types of Springs break with use thats not a defect thats a fact.Jerry
     
  13. whiz white

    whiz white Strong Supporter of Trapshooting Banned

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    Perazzi MX8: I can understand grounding the Gulfstream, but it's probably just one of those "old" G4's, and not the G5!

    ;-)

    WW
     
  14. lytnin1

    lytnin1 Member

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    drgondog, I broke a bottom spring in my Type 1 Perazzi a couple of years ago, and tried unsuccessfully to get a replacement. In the end Perazzi, Italy, told me to get a new hole drilled in trigger assy. to accept later style springs. This I did.
     
  15. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    I bought a set of Marcellow's springs when he first offered them for sale. After about three years, one did become weaker than the other so I bought a new set from him recently. I have no need of any other type springs in my Perazzi.

    Hap
     
  16. Sky Buster

    Sky Buster Sky Buster TS Supporters

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    Convert it to coil springs. You won't be able to tell the
    difference between the two. The coil will last 10 times as
    long. How often do you change hammer springs on a TM-1 ?
     
  17. argus tuft

    argus tuft Member

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    Coil springs go flat gradually, you start getting the occasional missfire, you generally go through all th BS cleaning the trigger group, fitting new firing pins etc before you finally admit the coil springs are shagged, flat V springs work right up until the last shot, you pop out the trigger group, no diagnosis needed, its obvious and the new spring is a snap to fit, fitting a new coil is a PITA


    Best Quality guns all have leaf springs, I mean the ones starting around 70 or 80K up, must be something in Flat springs


    Argus
     
  18. tractorboy

    tractorboy Member

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    Hap said: "I bought a set of Marcellow's springs when he first offered them for sale. After about three years, one did become weaker than the other so I bought a new set from him recently. I have no need of any other type springs in my Perazzi."

    Hap, how many shells did the spring see before you replaced it?
     
  19. oldgahchamp

    oldgahchamp Active Member

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    One important thing that promotes longer life for the flat springs is to relieve the pressure on them when done using the gun. For my model 12 deer gun, I put an empty shell in it and pull the trigger as it won't get shot again (maybe) for another year. Larry
     
  20. tractorboy

    tractorboy Member

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    This is a very interesting discussion. Now, don't get me wrong, I think that Perazzi is the best designed target gun there is. But, I believe that Mr. Perazzi did not heed the advice of his mechanical engineer when he designed his flat spring.

    If you look at the picture at the top you can see that, in both cases, the crack begins at the pin and propagates across the spring to the other side. With this design, when the spring is compressed there is normal movement in the X-Y axis, but there is also an unintended movement in the side of the spring opposite to the pin. In effect, the outside edge of the spring wants to drop to a lower elevation than the side with the pin. This creates a tendency for the fabric of the metal to want to tear at the point of the pin which appears to be the failure mode that actually happens.

    I would be curious to know if any of the UNIVERSAL spring users have actually broken one of their springs. So, far I've heard one user say he replaced one becuase it got weak. My guess is that the failure mode of the UNIVERSAL spring would be completely different than the original spring.

    Has anybody actually broken a UNIVERSAL spring?
     
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