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PENN State Shoot. Same old Same old.

4K views 60 replies 24 participants last post by  The Rock 
#1 ·
They are openly sandbagging at the Penn State Shoot. 97 98 99 100 in C and D class. When will the ATA open their eye's and do something about it?
 
#4 ·
For the life of me, I can't figure out why anyone would sandbag in singles, or, for that matter, why it would bother anyone if they did. It they want to win a C or D class trophy and are happy staying there and not improving, who cares? There sure as heck isn't any money in the single so why would anyone bother? I agree with Jim Elliott. C and D class shooters can, and do, at times, rise to the occassion and shoot some great scores, especially at the larger shoots. Now, in handicap, I can understand that there are, indeed, sandbaggers that are after the added money and the option money, but in singles???? Nah....I don't think so.....Just my take on it......Dan Thome (Trap2)
 
#6 ·
Very interesting. I just looked up some of the records for these winners. A few hundred targets to date but annual counts of 2000+ and annual averages above class. Some of these are not a guy having a good day, it is a guy shooting at the true class average level of his past several years.

The great harm that is done when people are mis-classified is that it discourages new shooters who are truly in that class. If you are not a Vet, and have 2 years of shooting, you should not be allowed to shoot D and 3 years for C.
 
#7 ·
To you naysayers I will state a couple of examples. A couple of years ago a class C shooter broke and 100 hundred at the Grand Prelim days. This forum had many complaints, such as Gargo posted. Truth. It was shot by a 14 year old boy. His best score previously was 93. And I know the circumstances were as posted. He was a member of our winning SCTP Junior team. He did not shoot that well in the SCTP championships.

Another example (I have posted this before) but a class C shooter broke 200 at our state shoot, a couple of years ago. Ran something like 198 in shoot off to loose by one target. I personally know the young man. He was not sandbagging. He had never came close to 100 before. If you were there and watched you would agree he was not a sandbagger. Rode the targets out over 20 yards before he shot. But he had encouragement from a lot of us and he proceeded to provide a great deal of excitement to the shoot off. I believe it was the largest spectator croud in years.

So you see gentlemen. No only sandbaggers can shoot good scores. In fact I know a couple of so called sandbaggers. What they shoot is a laugh and a half.
Be congratulatory to all that shoot good scores. Just like to feel the need to congratulate the pros in this sport. - Jim
 
#8 ·
To you naysayers I will state a couple of examples. A couple of years ago a class C shooter broke and 100 hundred at the Grand Prelim days. This forum had many complaints, such as Gargo posted. Truth. It was shot by a 14 year old boy. His best score previously was 93. And I know the circumstances were as posted. He was a member of our winning SCTP Junior team. He did not shoot that well in the SCTP championships.

Another example (I have posted this before) but a class C shooter broke 200 at our state shoot, a couple of years ago. Ran something like 198 in shoot off to loose by one target. I personally know the young man. He was not sandbagging. He had never came close to 100 before. If you were there and watched you would agree he was not a sandbagger. Rode the targets out over 20 yards before he shot. But he had encouragement from a lot of us and he proceeded to provide a great deal of excitement to the shoot off. I believe it was the largest spectator croud in years.

So you see gentlemen. No only sandbaggers can shoot good scores. In fact I know a couple of so called sandbaggers. What they shoot is a laugh and a half.
Be congratulatory to all that shoot good scores. Just like to feel the need to congratulate the pros in this sport. - Jim
 
#13 ·
Jim Elliott, you do not know what class I'm in. Just to let you know I'm in upper A class close to AA class. I hate sandbaggers because they are cheating the young shooters who are trying to enjoy the sport and trying to earn something for hard work and practice. To have it taken away by someone who is not in their propper class is wrong. To have a B or A class shooter in D or C class is wrong. All I'm saying is give the new shooter a chance to win and win fairly. To shoot a 85 and be beat by an 86 is one thing to be beat by a 97 98 99 100 is another.
 
#15 ·
Gargo - From what I have read if one of these younger shooter shoot a good score you will then class them as a sandbagger. Quit worrying about sandbaggers and start working more on your shooting skills. Who know maybe you will win a Class A event and then someone will accuse you of sandbagging because you just broke a AA score. - Jim
 
#16 ·
For the general information of the readers of this thread, Gargoyle has shot some fine scores. He has been accused of several things, but never of sandbagging. He has also helped develop some new shooters. I do believe that it is possible to find some good things in everyone. It is very easy to see good things in some, for others, a closer inspection is required.

Pat Ireland
 
#17 ·
Now I understand why he is irritated. He is concerned for his shooters. That's commendable.

The fact remains, that his shooters are going to have to get into the 97-and-above scores to be able to win at a big shoot, though. That is just the way it is. He has to find a way to instill a desire to stick with the sport until they can get there, or take them to some of the less competitive state shoots. A win at a smaller shoot will help your confidence level...it certainly helped me.
 
#18 ·
Think of the guy that is classified a "C" shooter and hits a 92 on the first 100
Then in the afternoon he hits his first ever 100 straight. Now you cant convince me that this guy, because he hit a 100 is sandbaggin......Like DUH!
Hint! why in Gods name would he not hit the 100 in the first event.

THNK
 
#19 ·
Pat - I might agree with you except Gargo seems to feel it necessary to condemn any person shooting a score above his/her average. His comments always are derogatory about shooters in lower classes and/or short yardages, shooting scores above their averages and/or what might be considered their proper ability. Yet I have not seen one comment from him/her about putting some form of restrictions and/or changes that might effect the great shooters of this sport.
After all they are really the sandbaggers of the sport. They have time, monies and abilities to hone their skills and when they do, (as usual) shoot high scores they suffer no consequences.

Please realize I am not stating I have any solution to the problem. But as long as we continue to have a system that supports the trully great shooter, we are going to have a problem with those that feel they have to make some form
of compensation. - Jim
 
#20 ·
I've been reading these "sandbagging" threads about D and C Class shooters posting high/above their average scores. One thing we all have to remember is its just math. Early on last yeat I had 3 poor singles scores. A 177/200, a 41/50 and an 85/100. It kept me in B Class all season. I had many 48 and 49/50 and usually hit 95 or 96 on 100 bird events and with over 3500 singles targets I barely got my average back to the 94 it was the previous year. So I was a B Class shooter consistantly scoring in the mid 90's. And I didn't even win a trophy last year. lol. But I wasn't sandbagging. Just a victim of the math.

Keep shooting!
Frank
 
#21 ·
Jim Elliott, you don't read much do you? If you did read you would have read that I said that when you win you go up a class and you stay there. You do not have a reduction. You go up and you stay up. Also if you shoot a 98 99 100 you should go up 2 classes.
 
#22 ·
If you look at it by pure average than every class is won buy someone shooting above average. We all know you cant sniff a trophy in AAA,AA,A without 100 or 200 str8. So think about this.

AAA >98. 2% increase
AA >96.25 3.75%
A >94.75 5.25%
B >93 7%
C >90 10%
D <90 + 10%

Now look at a bowler, with a 215 average(above average) has a 39% increase to bowl a 300. And yet not a single bitch among the bowling crowd. Or a non-scratch golfer who shoots below par. Only congratulations and praise for a job well done, it's just excepted that they had a good day. No whining or crying about it. By the standards here, any one who has a career day is a sandbagger. I'm sorry to all the whiners stuck in mediocrity, just suck it up and be happy for your fellow shooters.

Jeff G
 
#25 ·
Gargoyle- Yes, when one shoots an 85 in class C or D, they should recognize that they did not shoot well enough to win a trophy.

You operate a gun club and you are free to use the classification system you support at that club. You are also free to submit your suggestion to the VA association for approval in a couple of weeks. If it is a good proposal, it would not be difficult to gain support. If it is a poor proposal, support for the change will be difficult to find.

Pat Ireland
 
#26 ·
Gargle: Only you could turn a positive into a negative. If that is your attitude you don't even deserve to be around kids let alone coach then.
A Kid goes 0 for 4 and they loose by one run because another kid went 4 for 4 and you tell the first kid "Your not good enought"
A kid shoots 3 for 12 and they loose by 10 points because another kid shoots 10 for 12 and you tell the first kid "Your not good enough"

If you do you are a lousy coach. Either kid could have had a bad day or they need more practice and work, usually the latter. 90's are a goal they should work for. If they can't practice alot then don't expect quick results and don't sent a kid to a large or big shoot with the idea he is going to win with a 85,86,87,88,89,90 if you do you are just setting him for a possibe defeat.

Use your brain instead of your mouth.

Don
 
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