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Penalty @ Grand

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Recoil Sissy, Jul 30, 2009.

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  1. Recoil Sissy

    Recoil Sissy Well-Known Member

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    SWIFT:

    Targets shot during PRELIMINARY WEEK count toward the 1000 requirement. In your example, the first 100 targets shot during preliminary week would be at the penalty yardage. The next day you would need to be reclassified. After that, the penalty yardage would no longer apply.

    sissy

    PS: The same is true for singles and doubles. The first 100 of either shot during preliminary week would get you to the 1000 minimum. Reclassify the next day and shoot under your proper classification.
     
  2. V10

    V10 Well-Known Member

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    Sissy,

    That's not exactly correct. I don't think the penalty applies until Grand Week.

    Here are the applicable items from the program:

    "2) No participant shall be classified to shoot Handicap events at less than 25.0 yards unless they have a minimum of 1000 registered Handicap targets in the current year. The 1000 handicap targets must have been registered beginning the first day after the last day of previous Grand American World Championships through the last day of preliminary week of the current Grand American Championships. "

    "5) All targets shot from Wednesday, August 5, through Sunday, August 9, may be applied toward meeting the above target requirements. If target requirements are met, you will remain shooting assigned yardage in handicap and/or assigned classification in singles and doubles unless your classis advanced or yardage
    is earned. "
     
  3. BIGDON

    BIGDON Well-Known Member

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    I believe Sissy is right. Penalty always applies at large shoots even during the prelims.

    Don
     
  4. V10

    V10 Well-Known Member

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    So then where is the inducement for someone to come to Preliminary Week and get their targets in if they have to shoot penalty while acquiring the minimum?

    Read Paragraph 5 again. Believe me, they could have written it a bit plainer, but when it says that "If target requirements are met, you will remain shooting assigned yardage ... " indicates to me that they are shooting assigned yardage already (during Preliminary Week), not penalty.
     
  5. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    V10 actually I think you are confusing assigned yardage with penalty yardage. As an example in the rule book it say.

    C. HANDICAP YARDAGE ASSIGNMENT

    A shooter will be handicapped between 18 and 27 yards and at the
    highest yardage punched on his/her Average Card, unless he/she is
    required to shoot penalty yardage.

    So if you are assigned to the 23 yard line and they put you in penalty 25 the for the first two handicap events. Then you have your thousand targets they put you back on your assigned yardage.

    I know it isn't clear on that point but you need to look at rule 2 in the program the second half of the rule.

    However, participants who fail to meet Grand American Handicap qualification as described above shall have the choice of shooting targets only from their assigned yardage provided they waive and forfeit all rights to ATA Trophies, options, purses and added Money.

    Rule 5 in the program says.

    If target requirements are met, you will remain shooting assigned yardage
    in handicap and/or assigned classification in singles and doubles unless your class is advanced or yardage is earned.

    You have to understand that the person that is laying out the program for printing has seen this rule so many time they don't seem to realize that the rules are as clear as mud.

    Bob Lawless
     
  6. V10

    V10 Well-Known Member

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    Bob,

    Each one of the paragraphs in the program that deal with this topic lead me to my original conclusion, i.e., the penalty applies for Grand Week, not Preliminary Week.

    Here's paragraph 1:

    "1) Shooters who do not have a total of 1000 16 yard targets registered beginning the first day after the last day of previous Grand American World Championships through the last day of preliminary week of the current Grand American Championships will be advanced (1) class or more at the discretion of the CHC. Shooters with less than 500 registered single targets will be placed in Class B or higher at the discretion
    of the CHC. "

    This is pretty clear. If you do not have 1000 singles targets registered between 16Aug08 and 9Aug09, you will be advanced one class or more, etc. So, if someone shows up during Preliminary Week with 900 singles targets registered since last August 16th, they'll be able to shot their current class. None of these penalties can apply until the 10th of August 2009 because you don't know whether they should be penalized until you see whether they have less than 1000 targets between 16Aug08 and 9Aug09.
     
  7. BIGDON

    BIGDON Well-Known Member

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    The inducement is to come shoot penalty, get your targets and shoot regular class and yardage during Grand Week. The problem some have is shoot penalty, shoot well and get bumped from penalty which then carries over to Grand week.

    Don
     
  8. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    V10 I understand that the wording is confusing but ask your self a question if this year had not been a short target year(10 months)would you even see the following?

    "The 1000 handicap targets must have been registered beginning the first day after the last day of previous Grand American World Championships through the last day of preliminary week of the current Grand American Championships."

    As this rule from the 2008 Grand would seem to support.

    2) Shooters who do not have a total of 1,000 handicap targets registered with the ATA in the current year will be assigned 25 yards or their current yardage, whichever is greater. Handicap target requirements are waived for Senior Veterans, making them eligible for trophies and monies. Known ability may also be applied by the handicap committee.

    This year is confusing I believe only by the method used to try to clarify the difference in the short target year.

    2) No, participant shall be classified to shoot Handicap events at less than 25..0 yards unless they have a minimum of 1000 registered Handicap targets in the current year. The 1000 handicap targets must have been registered beginning the first day after the last day of previous Grand American World Championships through the last day of preliminary week of the current Grand American Championships. However, participants who fail to meet Grand American Handicap qualification as described above shall have the choice of shooting targets only from their assigned yardage provided they waive and forfeit all rights to ATA Trophies, options, purses and added Money.

    I have put the link to the 2008 Grand program above in the website address look it over and see if it make any more sense to you. It definitely isn't very clear and should have been worded differently.

    Bob Lawless
     
  9. V10

    V10 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Bob, I was going to look at previous programs because I do think they got wrapped around the axle with their wording.

    Compare paragraph 4 in the 2008 program with paragraph 5 in 2009. In '08 it is clearly stated that you must get re-classified if you meet the requirements during Prelim Week. This tells me that penalties were applied.

    In '09 it says "If target requirements are met, you will remain shooting assigned yardage..." that still tells me that penalties aren't being applied.

    I think the problem with the '09 program is they left a few sentences out when they edited it from the '08 program.

    Para 4, '08:

    "4) All targets shot from Wednesday, August 6, through Sunday, August 10, may be applied toward meeting the above target requirements. If target requirements are met, you must immediately return to the Handicap desk and be reclassified. If required qualification for the Grand American is not met, you will remain shooting assigned yardage in handicap and/or assigned classification
    in singles and doubles unless your class is advanced or yardage is earned."

    Para 5, '09:

    "5) All targets shot from Wednesday, August 5, through Sunday, August 9, may be applied toward meeting the above target requirements. If target requirements are met, you will remain shooting assigned yardage in handicap and/or assigned classification in singles and doubles unless your classis advanced or yardage
    is earned."

    This phrase from the '08 program was deleted: " ... you must immediately return to the Handicap desk and be reclassified. If required qualification for the Grand American is not met, ... "

    There are a number of editing errors in this program. This is probably the worst one.
     
  10. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    V10- I think your confusion involves the term assigned yardage. If your normal yardage is 20 and you lack the required minimum handicap targets, you will be assigned a penalty yardage of 25. Twenty five yards becomes your assigned yardage. During preliminary events, you will be assigned a penalty yardage. If you meet the minimum targets during the preliminary events, you can be re-assigned your normal yardage. The term "assigned" does not refer to what is on your card, it is what you are given by the classification committee.

    Pat Ireland
     
  11. V10

    V10 Well-Known Member

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    No, Pat, I think the confusion comes about because of the editing between the '08 and '09 programs.
     
  12. Recoil Sissy

    Recoil Sissy Well-Known Member

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    V10:

    The exact source of your confusion notwithstanding, anyone lacking the required minimum targets and thinking they'll shoot preliminary week without penalty yardage and/or classification is in for a suprise.

    sissy
     
  13. V10

    V10 Well-Known Member

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    I don't disagree. However, the program gives them until the 9th of August to get their minimums. That date should be the 4th, not the 9th. And then, if they get their minimums during Preliminary week they can be re-classified. That's how it's been in the past. But the current program doesn't read that way. It's a "problem" brought about by a combination of over specifying and over editing.
     
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