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Penalty Doubles- still upset about it

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by tlmch, Jul 7, 2007.

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  1. tlmch

    tlmch TS Member

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    I tried to let this go, but I believe what happened to me at the Calif State Shoot needs to be talked about since it involves not just the CGSTA, but the ATA's classification program used by the CGSTA.
    The details: my doubles average for the current year was 71.5 from 400 targets. Last year it was 84 with just 100 targets shot. In 2005, no doubles, 2004, 75.55 based on 1100 targets, and 78.67 from 600 targets.
    This is the information on my current card that the Director classifying me could have looked at, but ignored. The only thing used was the average from the ATA program which had me at a 78 average, and recommended C class.
    The problems I have with this. The official average of 78 was explained by a Director I was talking to later in the week, as being a weighted averaging system used by the ATA. It seems only low scores are thrown out, which would be a hard thing to do on me, since that is all I have. Even based on this weighted score, the cutoff for the State was 82 to divide D from C class. The Director only cared what was on the computer screen, and it said C. Given this questionable official averaging, I see no reason to bother keeping track of scores shot because I only shoot singles and doubles at the State and my local club, where my known ability, or better stated, lack of ability, is well known. If they are going to be ignored and don't matter, then there is no need to write them down.
    The serious issue that I hope is not making shooters in other States have to, in effect, shoot in a penalty class, is how the ATA program figured I belonged in C class for doubles.
    If you are wondering how I did in the 2 doubles events. I broke what I believe is my all time low of 56 in the first event, and followed that with maybe a 63. I am already liking not keeping a running average, it helps blur the bad day's efforts with no reminder staring me in the face each time I look at my card. Bet everyone in D class sent up offerings to the trap gods in thanks that they did not have to contend with me in those events.
    Did the Director make a mistake? I certainly think so, but the person was guided by that program. I do not mean this post to attack this Director or any of our State Directors. I know many of them by sight, and they work hard to put on a good shoot. If a member of the national handicapping commitee, or a State Delegate outside of Calif would like the information necessary to look into this, so it does not happen in their State, I will supply it.
    There were other classification oddities that occurred, just like any other year, but just to further the case that the program used still needs serious work, I will mention one instance that was talked about. There was an All American shooter put in AA for singles, and until seen on the posted scores sheet, no one who knows this shooter would believe that the person was not in AAA. I do not know this shooter, but those who do know the known ability of the shooter were in disbelief when faced with the reality.
    I can shoot penalty doubles, and an All American can shoot bonus singles. I can understand trying to reduce the subjective aspect involved in classifying, but whatever the intended goal of this ATA program is, it is not there yet.
    Tom
     
  2. wild turkey

    wild turkey TS Member

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    You caught a break only being classed "c". At most other major shoots you would have been "a" class because you did not reach the minumum target requirements for the year.

    Also look at the "d" class scores that were posted,were you even close to winning? I an "a" class doubles shooter with a 91.3 average and when I go to the PA state shoot "d" class shooters regulary post higher scores than mine. Sandbagging.....maybe, but i am only really shooting against myself.
     
  3. likes-to-shoot

    likes-to-shoot Well-Known Member

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    This is the first year my buddy and I have shot doubles. They classified him in D class and me in C class. He is carrying a 77 average and mine is 84. Those averages are in the proper classes. Our averages in singles and handicap yardage are equal to each other.

    At the Iowa state shoot if you don't have the required targets the penalty is A-25-A.

    There is no perfect system so I guess we have to live with what we got.

    Bill
     
  4. tlmch

    tlmch TS Member

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    Actually, I did have the minimum required by the Calif program to not have to shoot penalty class. Maybe not the best word choice to describe what happened since penalty has a defined meaning, but it does describe what occurred. I meet the requires for D, but was put in C by a computer program.
    Tom
     
  5. bcnu

    bcnu Active Member

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    I would probably have put you in D based on averages. At most any state shoot you are going to have to have a pretty good score to get in the running.

    They use the disc in Missouri and it has always been spot on for me every time save one when I had just shot at a local shoot the week before and shot up a class based on averages. I told they and was moved accordingly.

    John
     
  6. tlmch

    tlmch TS Member

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    I don't know the extent of what I see as a problem, thus this post to find out. As far as a chance to win, no, the misclassification meant nothing. It usually takes a 94 to win D at the State. Having never posted a doubles score in the 90's, missing a chance to win is not part of my concerns. Thanks for the feedback.
    Tom
     
  7. tlmch

    tlmch TS Member

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    Thanks DB, you brought up good points. I tried the first 2 on your list, at the window to correct what I saw as an obvious mistake, but the expression on the Director's face told me it was a waste of time to continue, then later with other Directors, not to get it changed, but just to try and understand why. Because these other Directors are friends, I decided to stop short of asking one to run my card and see where they would have put me. Respecting the fact they take on the job as Directors and have alot to deal with, I did not force the issue to that point. Maybe I should have. I did not approach our State Delegate. The delay, well just letting the thread on our new State Singles Champion run it's course before presenting my concern with the classifying process. The computer got it right on my singles, it was just strange how it could be so far off on doubles. If the mistake was with the Director, then I agree this thread serves no purpose. If it is with the program, then it has far reaching impact. Thus here I am whining. lol
    Tom
     
  8. maclellan1911

    maclellan1911 TS Member

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    All STATE Champion shoots should cleary mark on program what the penalty class is for innsuficient targets, Knowing I did not have enough targets for Caps and doubles at mass shoot I chose not to shoot those events. I think the "wrong" is all shoots should inform you of classification penaltys. I think if Minimun targets are not met there should be a set default class, no interpitation of class just a set default. This way these things can be avoided. I was going to shoot the NH state Handicap and doubles, emailed for info and got B/25/B for penalty. I chose not to go today. I will be shooting all 3 events at HSC. If you where not happy with the clasifiction you should voice your opinion if not happy with it dont shoot. I was classed in C for my 2 time shooting felt I was going to get swept, I did much better than I exspected. I recently won Class D singles Ma state, I have not shot since. Im currious to where they will class me on the singles, even though I won my average is still a Dclass. I hope to shoot in a higher class but that is up to shot management. Im not sure what the HSC is setting for penalty for not having enough targets but im choosing now to shoot what ever class they put me in. When ever you get "INTERPITATION" of rules and regulations, you are bound to be upset, or not agreeing with the mind set of the interpitor.
     
  9. k3uro

    k3uro Member

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    Hey,

    From my limited experience it all about protecting the good shooter system.

    It has nothing to do with fair play or a fair opportunity.

    ATA counts illegial targets shot at and no matter what you must shoot at a good pair of doubles or shoot them both over.

    The MN state doubles has been won for several years by the same shooter?

    Whats fair, I do not know?

    Take care,

    Jim
     
  10. ffwildcat

    ffwildcat TS Member

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    Dude, you weren't the only one screwed by what I consider mediocre classification at the State Shoot. I am very likely never going to shoot ATA events again after this season and that goes for my son too. Don't need it.
     
  11. jevoliva

    jevoliva Member

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    timch...

    the only way that I could answer this question (I classify for the Indiana State Shoot and the Indiana Zone Shoots) would be to know what your 4 scores were from this year. If you have a score above 82 this year, coupled with the 84 from last year, that is two scores above D class and with only 500 shot in the last two years, I would have to put in you in C class. 40% of your scores qualify in the C Class on the 6 Class system and that is enough to bump you up in my eyes.

    As for the All-American, he could very easily have a AA average in singles, especially if all of the All American points come from the handicap and doubles events (and if that is occurring, then the HOA and HAA). I personally bounce back and forth from AA to AAA in singles from year to year - I am no where near all-american status, but I can see how it can happen. I believe last year at the Grand that there were 2 to 3 2005 All-Americans in AA in singles. It happens.

    Let me know what your individual scores are from this year and I can give you a more concise reason for the classification.

    John Voliva, R.Ph.
    Southern Zone Director
    Indiana Trapshooters Association
     
  12. ec90t

    ec90t Guest

    tlmch,

    Consider yourself a victim of the 10% rule. Any score that it 10%,or more, below your highest score will be thrown out. This will happen reguardless of the amount of targets that you have shot. I know this from personal experience, as it happend to me at my state shoot a couple of years ago.

    This is a rule that is in place to help protect against "Sandbagging". The problem with the rule is that it doesn't take into consideration a good day. I could understand this if more than one of these (scores) were present, but it doesn't! Just understand the old addage, "No good deed will go unpunished"!

    ec90t
     
  13. smartass

    smartass TS Member

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    Tom, if you didn't like the class you were put in, why in the hell did you shoot the event? Since YOU chose to participate in the doubles event, you have no legitimate complaint. If you had won C class, I'm sure you wouldn't be whining now. Since you didn't, you now expect sympathy !!!!. If you want sympathy, get a dog.

    Also, please look up the definition of the word "paragraph" in the dictionary and learn to use them.
     
  14. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    ec90t- Are you describing a rule or simply a policy used by some clubs and/or classifiers?

    Anonymous- A paragraph is simply two similar graphs. What does this have to do with writing?


    Pat Ireland
     
  15. Beancounter

    Beancounter TS Member

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    I just love to hear from people who register fewer targets across 4 years than I do in one season. And then they want to talk about getting the short end of the stick when being handicapped. My advice, register at least 1500 doubles targets per year. You will have a very established average and this won't happen again. But if you do not register many targets - come to the east coast, you will be in penalty class B or A before you can blink.
     
  16. tom berry

    tom berry Active Member

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    Pat, In the rule book it states that "abnormally low scores should be discarded". But it doesn't say that the "SHALL be discarded".

    I've seen too many classifiers at larger shoots just look at the screen and not even look at the paper card. The computer should be just another tool, not the only tool.
     
  17. BMC

    BMC Member

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    I'm A-22-A and was classed as AA/AA at the state shoot, probably because both my A averages are very close to being five-tier AA. I asked the classifier why AA? He stated it was based off my last five recorded scores, which were pretty good. I've shot about 2,500 doubles targets in the five months prior to the state shoot so I can see why they would choose the percentage of the latest, versus those shot earlier in the year. At first I was thinking it was a bummer, then realized "hey, I finally made it to AA status!!!". That's awesome. Had to run um in AAA, AA or A, so it didn't matter in the big picture what letter was on my sheet.
     
  18. tlmch

    tlmch TS Member

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    John, my scores this year were 79,71,65, and 71 going into the State. I had not heard of the 40% method you mentioned. Interesting.
    Tom
     
  19. BMC

    BMC Member

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    Tic, that AA was only for the state shoot, all of our other local ATA events use the five-tier, which I'm not far from AA percentage anyways. Personally my goal is get to the point where I can shoot AA scores legitmately. I'm getting closer, just need to be more consistent. You'll have to tell me what page of the rule book that part about the HC yardage increase based on singles scores is. I can't find it. I shot 49/50 today from the 27 so if the ATA should decide to move me back, great, I'll get to the 27 that much sooner, though I would rather earn it.
     
  20. BMC

    BMC Member

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    Tom, I'm sure I will be corrected if I am wrong on this, but I believe the penalty was B class for less than 1,000 targets. Based on your scores for this year, and last year, which total only 500 targets, it sounds to me like the classifier actually gave you a break and moved you down when you should have technically been in B class. Someone with more of an official status please correct me if I am wrong.
     
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