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PATTERNING, DOES IT TELL THE WHOLE STORY???

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by senior smoke, Sep 1, 2009.

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  1. senior smoke

    senior smoke Well-Known Member

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    HELLO:
    when i purchase a new gun, i have always taken a peep sight with me to see if the barrel is straight before i purchase the gun. most store owners, shooters that are selling the gun don't seem to mind. when i get the gun home i clean it and then take it out to the patterning board. i want to see how high or low the gun is shooting, as well if it is indeed shooting straight. i have used a peeps on the barrel and it shows it is straight, but when i pattern the gun sometines it shoots left or right. usually the stock is to thick for my fat face and alterations have to be madethen. now here is the question that puzzels me. i have a gun that shoots 100% high at 30 yards. i see a figure 8 when i mount the gun. when i shoot i touch the bottom of the target and i get a garbage can lid of smoke, great. if the gun is patterning 100% high, wouldn't you think i would have to float the target so i don't shoot over the target?? instead i just touch the bottom of the target and it turns to smoke. i don't understand this, how can you shoot a 100% patterning gun and still touch the bottom of the target and smoke it? any comments would be appreciated.
    steve balistreri
     
  2. slayer

    slayer Well-Known Member

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    You are shooting at a target that is moving up, generally. thusly you have to lead the target...up. And by crowding or touching the target you are doing just that. If you "floated" your moving target you would shoot under it and get a bad break or a miss.
    Bill in MI
     
  3. Easystreet

    Easystreet Well-Known Member

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    Steve,

    Your patterning (POI) results are done with a stationary target. Your actual shooting at trap targets is done with moving targets which are not moving in a perfectly straight line due (mainly) to gravity. Therein lies the difference (stationary target versus moving target).

    The bead/target relationship your mind sees when it tells your finger to pull the trigger is not the same as the bead target relationship when the shot pattern/column actually gets to the target.

    Easystreet
     
  4. senior smoke

    senior smoke Well-Known Member

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    guys:
    if that is the case, what value does patterning your gun on a stationary piece of paper really have, because we are shooting at moving targets. yes, i want to know if the gun is shooting left or right, i also want to know how low or high it shoots. but what real value does it have if the gun on paper shoots 100% high and then when you shoot at moving targets it appears to shoot flat and you have to touch the bottom of the target??? so basically what you both are saying is patterning on paper and shooting moving targets are different, right?
    steve
     
  5. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    senior smoke- The measured POI will tell you where the gun shoots. It will not tell you where you shoot the gun.

    Pat Ireland
     
  6. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    A gun that shoots 100% high is for people that hold a high gun and want to shoot targets without having to move the gun vertically. They want to move the gun only left or right for angle targets and do away with as much vertical movement as possible.

    You might have better luck with guns if you shoot it before you buy it. HMB
     
  7. JimmyP

    JimmyP TS Member

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    My belief, and it is only my opinion, is that patterning does not tell the whole story. Lock time, swing speed, shell speed, gun weight, all have an effect on how you hit the bird with a given gun. How well you see the bird around the barrel can effect it also. If you want to discuss any part just pick a point and i will try to explain myself.

    Jimmy
     
  8. senior smoke

    senior smoke Well-Known Member

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    this will sound wierd but, if your gun shoots 12 inches high shooting at a stationary target, i would think in order to break a moving target you would need to see daylight underneath the target to break it. i am actually touching the bottom of the target and it makes very little sense to me.
    steve
     
  9. JimmyP

    JimmyP TS Member

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    Steve, think about it this way. When shooting from a bench the gun is not moving. When shooting a moving target how fast you swing at the bird, when you pull the trigger, when you slow your swing, etc... makes for where the shot goes. You could actually be slowing your swing at the same time you pull the trigger which makes a bigger lead or less lead (however your looking at it) which puts the shot on the target.

    Jimmy
     
  10. sliverbulletexpress

    sliverbulletexpress TS Member

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    You know the gun shoots high because you patterned it, I'll bet you swing quick enough to catch up with it but start slowing down and probably stop as you catch up with it and as your pulling the trigger because your brain knows if you pass by it your gonna miss it. My opinion for what its worth but I am an amateur physcologicalproctologist with a minor in crossrectophobia.
     
  11. senior smoke

    senior smoke Well-Known Member

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    i have been told that i swing and shoot fast. not intentional, i shoot when i see the target. i need to take a clinic someday to get straightened out.
    steve
     
  12. AveragEd

    AveragEd Well-Known Member

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    Steve, I've said for a long time that we shoot at stationary targets differently than we do moving ones and some people look at me with raised eyebrows. My trap guns print patterns the bottom of which are four inches above the aiming point yet when I shoot at a trap target, I can "mess up" and see that the gun is blocking out the target when I release the trigger, yet the target, while obviously hit high, still breaks fairly well. If my gun really shot that high at targets, that wouldn't be possible.

    I have no proof of this and really don't care about the whys and hows of it, but I think some of us simply do something different when we shoot at moving targets. That's why I never put any importance on patterning for POI beyond making sure the gun shoots straight. Once I have one gun "sighted in" for myself, I can take it and a new one - as I did when I bought the Beretta I now shoot - to the patterning board and adjust the new one until it shoots to the same point as the old one and be pretty close on targets.

    Don't worry about something you may not be able to control.

    Ed
     
  13. country gentleman

    country gentleman Member

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    Steve,
    Your situation makes perfect sense to me. I patterntest 300+ guns each year. Everyone wants to touch at or near the bottom of the target to break it..
    So here it is , simply put. Shooters have different hold points, reaction times, barrel speeds. This gun, at 100%, simply matches your move to the target from your given hold point. The next guy that shoots it may miss everything because his move, speed, timing is faster or slower than yours. He may discover that he has to float the target or even cover the target to break it.
    Shooters who are successful with flat shooting guns, have an approach to the target that is best suited by the POI of a flat shooting gun. They want to touch the target too.

    Hand your gun to a one-eyed shooter who holds on the house and makes a long move to the bird and he will miss everything over top until he figures out that he must float the bird. Hard to float consistently. Too much thinking. Gun is not suited to his approach.

    Hand him a gun that shoots 60-75% high and he may well win the event.

    The only thing you need to worry about fixing is some aspect of your game that you feel is unsustainable. This gun may suit you very well. Todd
     
  14. country gentleman

    country gentleman Member

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    Another scenario that is sometimes confusing.......

    Possible to have a K-80, figure 8, shoots 100% high on paper.
    Silver Seitz, figure 8, shoots 100% high as well.
    Same fitting dimensions, pitch, cast , LOP etc.
    K-80 smokes targets while you struggle with Silver Seitz. What is the problem?

    Heres the problem and the solution. Seitz is lighter, quicker, points faster, with a faster lock time than the K-80. Thats enough to screw up anyone whos trying to run the 2 guns from the same hold points.
    Seitz must be adjusted to break targets within these parameters, regardless of sight picture or pattern test similarities.
    You make the Seitz gun shoot higher or lower, to make it break the targets like the k-80 does, with sustainable similarity. The POI will be slightly different from on gun to the next, depending on how you drive the gun and how the gun responds to you. Adding weight to the faster gun is also an option to consider in the process. Todd
     
  15. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Steve, I think the big difference is that you know when you pull the trigger off a bench rest, when shooting at a target you don't. When I say "pull the trigger" I mean send the mental command to pull the trigger, which was at least a tenth of a second before the trigger actually gets pulled.

    I think that the "sight picture" we think we see is the end of the process, not the sending of the command to pull the trigger. There's about a 1/4 second between what we see and the breaking of the sear, which means (assuming we are moving the gun faster the bird) that the sight picture which made us send the command looked all "wrong," that is, we are still far, far from the apparent sight picture (at firing) when what the picture was then made us start to pull the trigger.

    For that reason, I don't take seriously any for the timing calculations which are easy to make but don't add a single bird to your totals.

    Shoot off a bench, up close, to see that your gun shoots evenly right/left most of the time and remember where it placed the shot vertically. You may need to know that last when you get a new gun and try "to make it shoot like the old one." But why would you do that? If you liked where the old one shot, why did you get a new one?

    Neil
     
  16. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    I see another problem with this discussion. Many have stated that they want the front sight to just touch the bird. But, with our eyes, it is physically impossible to clearly see the front sight and the bird. You can see one or the other clearly, but not both. How then can one know when the sight just touches the bird?

    Pat Ireland
     
  17. AveragEd

    AveragEd Well-Known Member

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    This could equivalent to voodoo, but I've always thought that our brain CAN see both objects subconciously and place the gun where it needs to be through hand-eye coordination. Since our visual faculties do not allow us to see both objects clearly, it's the only explanation I've been able to buy into.

    Ed
     
  18. wayneo

    wayneo Active Member

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    Steve, my gun shoots 10 inches high at 40 yards, I've patterned many loads and it always the same. I wanted to see what the bead/bird relationship would look like at 40 yards. I put a clay pigeon on the gutter of my house, about 12 feet from the ground, hung a tape measure under the bird and hi-lighted 10 inches. Walked backed 40 yards and held the front sight on the 10 inch mark, the bird is only about 1/4 of an inch above my front sight. Not scientific, but started crushing more birds, especially straightaways. Wayne

    Wife thought I was nuts.
     
  19. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Pat - I can look at a target directly and 'know' where my gun is by seeing it peripherally. When it comes into the immediate area where I'm focusing I should have already pulled the trigger. Is this not how you guys without a scope shoot?

    Nice thread, really nice thread. I especially appreciate the discussion about different guns and why a shooter may be able to shoot one and not the other. Very instructive.
     
  20. markdenis

    markdenis TS Member

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    When I pattern a trap gun at a stationary target, I do it at 20 yards and I need it to shoot at least one pattern high which is 100%. With this setup, I always see the target in relation to my barrel and beads when the gun is fired. Anything less than 100% high I have to cover the target up to break it. When I have to cover it up, the barrel hides the target and I have no idea where it is at except behind the barrel somewhere.

    Mark Rounds
     
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