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Patterning distance / Ken Rucker

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Citori Shooter, Jul 8, 2009.

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  1. Citori Shooter

    Citori Shooter TS Member

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    Hi,I came across a blog by Ken Rucker regarding adjustable combs and pattern distance.He recommends patterning at 13-16 yds to set an adjustable comb.I have always read and believed that 30 yds was the standard but the 13-16yd distance intrigues me.I would expect he shorter distance would show a more defined shot location for adjustment,especially left or right and therefore speed up setting an adjustable comb but what would be the ideal location for a 60/40 poi at 13-16yds.Is it the same as it would be for 30yds?Perhaps Ken or someone else here can enlighten me.Thank you for any insight provided.
     
  2. BigJohn270

    BigJohn270 Member

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    why not just use a tight choke at 30 yards if your wanting a more defined pattern?
    I would think you should be able to see the overall pattern/target POI at 30 yrds with a Mod or tighter choke, but maybe I am wrong.
     
  3. RAScott

    RAScott Member

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    try www.shotgun-insight.com
    (Allow time to download - approx 20seconds with a 56K dial-up)
    Point Of Aim Calculator


    The Point of Aim Calculator serves the following purposes:

    Converts inches of offset between the POA and POI to percentage of pellets above the POA.

    Shows that the percentage of pellets above the POA is heavily dependant upon the pattern spread.

    Shows that the variation of POA and percentage of pellets above POA is not a one to one relationship.

    If the POA calculator does not appear you need to configure your browser and computer.



    (c) Written by A C Jones http://www.shotgun-insight.com
    e-mail: info@shotgun-insight.com


    Bob S
     
  4. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    fred is correct. You should check the point of impact at 13 yards. This tells you where the gun will shoot at 40 yards.

    You should pattern the gun at 35-40 yards. This tells you how the gun shoots a particular load.

    A pattern is the distribution of shot, the point of impact is where the pattern ends up in relation to the aiming point.

    Pat Ireland
     
  5. RunGunIPSC

    RunGunIPSC TS Member

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    I have been patterning & doing POI for 40 yrs. I shoot at a distance where the choke is expected to be used. I add several yards to err on the safe side when looking for holes in the pattern & POI. 25 yards for skeet to 45 yards for the 27. I only shoot 1 shot per pattern/POI(you only fire 1 shot at each target,correct.) Yes,Yes,I do on occasion shoot 2 at 1 target in some games but realisticly it is 1 per 1. By careful sectioning & counting pellet hits,I have found I can determine POI to within 1" @ 40 yds just by looking carefully at a target. Since both elements are critical why not do both at 1 time.
     
  6. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    RunGunIPSC- For many years I thought I could tell the center of the pattern with some accuracy just by looking at it. But when the patterns are scanned and analyzed with a program, my estimate of the pattern center is different from the estimate made by the computer. I have also looked at the same pattern a few months after counting the holes and estimated a very different center.

    Pat Ireland
     
  7. jimrich60

    jimrich60 Member

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    I think Pat is absolute right here. Based on my experience over many years, it is very difficult to determine the true POI from a pattern. Additionally, the pattern can differ greatly from shot to shot, vary with the load used, and other variables. POI is best determined with a tight choke at short ranges (13 yards seems to be best) as this does not seem to vary much with load at this short distance, and the resulting POI (as differing from the point of aim) can readily be translated into the POI at any given longer distance. Pattern, on the other hand, should be shot at the range(s) you intend that particular load to break the target. That is, skeet loads are best patterned at typical skeet ranges (20-25 yards seems best for me) and trap loads around 35-45 yards (depending whether a 16 yard load or handicap load). This gives you a good idea of what that load will do at the given range (POI having already been determined from the 13 yard tests). Don't think a single shot in patterning will tell you much though, as there is simply too much variation from shot to shot. I like to shoot at least 5 shots of a given load to see what the "true" patterning ability of that load is.

    Jim R
     
  8. Ruck

    Ruck Well-Known Member

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    The reference to my blog that was quoted in the original post here deals only with determining poi. As others have said, this is best done at a short distance and with the tightest choke you have so that true pattern center can be easily determined. In short, if theoretically the dia. of your pattern at 13 yards is 6", you would adjust your comb so that 3.60" of your pattern is above your hold point (60% of 6 is 3.60). In my opinion, shooting a piece of paper at 40 yards is great way to waste time, paper and shells. It gives you a 2 dimensional view of a 3 dimensional object ( your shot string) which I believe to be mildly interesting but pretty much useless.
    Ken Rucker
     
  9. grunt

    grunt TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    TTT
     
  10. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]


    the search button is the key that opens the pandora's box of answers....
     
  11. BIGDON

    BIGDON Well-Known Member

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    13 yds times 3 = POI at 40. 4" high at 13 = 12" high at 40. Close enough for horseshoes and hand grenades.

    Don
     
  12. Ruck

    Ruck Well-Known Member

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    Don, my sentiments exactly.......this is a far cry from brain surgery! LOL!!
    Ken
     
  13. grunt

    grunt TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    Ken, Got the stock today, Looks great made some adjustments will give it a shake down in the AM. Thanks again. Dave B
     
  14. Ruck

    Ruck Well-Known Member

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    Thank YOU, Dave!!! Glad you like it!

    Ken
     
  15. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Ken Rucker - I must disagree with your statement that a 40 yard pattern is almost useless because it is a two dimensional print of a three dimensional object (shot cloud). Some simple arithmetic, and a little Trig, will show that the target usually moves less than 1 inch as the pattern passes the target. For practical purposes, this is only two dimensional. Try it-- at 35 yards the target has slowed to about 35 MPH and shot has slowed to about 1000 ft/sec. Skip the Trig and figure out how far a straight away target moves as the shot passes the target. (hint-0.6159996 inches).

    Pat Ireland
     
  16. Ruck

    Ruck Well-Known Member

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    Hey, Pat, if it makes you happy, go for it. It just serves no purpose for me.
    Ken
     
  17. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Ken- Good point. And, thanks for all of the fine custom stock work you do. I miss working with wood and guns, especially checkering and engraving. You keep making beautiful stocks and I will keep shooting at paper, but you will have more fun than I will.

    Pat Ireland
     
  18. Ruck

    Ruck Well-Known Member

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    Pat....you're welcome and thank you for all of your "no bs" posts on here. It's nice to have a few of us left on here who actually talk about guns and shooting occasionally!!
    Ken
     
  19. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    If fliers in a shot pattern is figured into the patterns equasion for POI purposes, you'll get a false reading on the true working POI. As Ruck said, this ain't brain surgery folks. Stopping at a set figure above POA at 13 yards will confuse a lot of shooters throwing lead at fleeing clays. I pattern somewhat as does jimrich60. After knowing my barrel is a straight shooter up close, I want to actually see that POI on paper,dirt or water. Finding the EXACT center of the pattern, not that important at all in my view. Close, as in horseshoes or hand grenades is plenty close for an estimated inches high at known yardages. Leave Trig&Fig at home! :)

    Hap
     
  20. Citori Shooter

    Citori Shooter TS Member

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    OK Ruck and all,thanks for the replies.To further explore this thread I would like to ask about adjustable butt plates.If moving an adjustable comb in the direction of desired shot location(Moving comb up raises pattern,down lowers,etc.);what does the adjustable butt plate do(excluding LOP)?Ruck you stated in your blog that an adjustable comb is the best modifaction for cost and I am considering having my Citori fitted with an adjustable comb than what can an adjustable butt plate do for me(excluding Gracoils,Bumpbuster,Rad,etc.and LOP)?Thanks.
     
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