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patterning: choke v.s. wad relationship

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by mercedesman1981, Jul 17, 2007.

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  1. mercedesman1981

    mercedesman1981 TS Member

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    I was looking over Neil Winston's photographs he posted on the subject of 13yd patterning and could not help but notice how tight his full chokes were. I have also been pattern testing my new Browning Citori XT Trap and my full choke does not appear to be as efficient as Neil's. Could this be a function of using different wads?

    Thanks,

    Mike
     
  2. C H S

    C H S TS Member

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    Could be different wads. But if you're using the chokes that came with the XT there are better chokes on the market; just about any of them, especially for a overbored barrel like the XT. I am realy impressed with the chokes I got from Ballistics Specialties (AnglePort) in their $25 each sale.

    Andy
     
  3. mercedesman1981

    mercedesman1981 TS Member

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    Hi Andy,

    Thanks for the tip. It's true, I am using the chokes that came with the XT. They are the internal version. They also sell different grades of chokes, but I imagine going to Ballistic Specialties or Briley would be money better spent. I thought I read somewhere Briley made the choke tubes for Browning so I thought I had a quality product already.

    Mike
     
  4. BMC

    BMC Member

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    Mike, try the Briley Full choke, it is considerably tighter than the factory full choke on paper. You'll notice the difference right away when you vaporize targets with them. At least I did.
     
  5. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Did Neil really pattern his gun at 13 yards or did he check the point of impact at 13 yards?

    Pat Ireland
     
  6. drh08

    drh08 TS Member

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    Wads do have an affect on the pattern of the gun with chokes. In general an 8 petal wad patterns more open than a 4. However you will notice a difference in uniformity with different wads also. Every gun will pattern a different wad a little differently and you would need to do some experimentation to find the one your gun likes. I shoot an 8 petal wad from Downrange called a Jammer (1 oz). It was between that and the XL1 from same manufactory which is 4 petal. However my bore is tight and the 8 petal works for me. The difference between the 4 petal XL1 and the 8 petal Jammer is about 1 choke tube.
     
  7. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    Neil suggests you can tell something about which choke was used when shooting for POI at 13yds, and gives visual examples. That is somewhat true. I find shooting for POI at 20yards is more informative if you are trying to do both.

    The trouble with 13yards is it can be misleading. As an example, when I shot my brand new O/U barrels for convergence and POI at 13 yard using some factory STS 1oz 8 1/2 shells, I was dumbfounded. The U barrel looked way more open than the Mod I knew it to be. Same with the O barrel. I knew "something" was wrong, because I'd measured the bores and chokes before I bought them. I knew I had Mod and Full minus .002" each. So why were the patterns so open? I mounted my unsingle (Full) and got the same results. ????

    Then I remembered. Shooting a Nitro27 7 1/2 in the unsingle gave me the single ragged hole I'd expected in the first place. Shooting 8s gives me a touch of lace. 8 1/2s give me a distinct pattern. One ounce loads show more lace yet. This does not translate into the same results at 20 yards or at patterning range.

    So, while I agree you can glean useful information at 13 yards, I'd certainly not make a go-no go decision on a choke tube based on what I found there.

    Mike, I'd shoot all your tubes for POI ASAP. I'll bet you find your Browning chokes don't all shoot to the same POI, and some are mismarked. Good aftermarket chokes are a good investment. Being able to change a choke when you want, without moving POI is a real blessing.
     
  8. Trap2

    Trap2 Well-Known Member

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    drh08.... I have to respectfully disagree with your statement saying that 8 petal wads pattern more open than 4 petal wads do. I have found, over a lot of testing and patterning, that the original Windjammer 8 petal wad consistantly yields a tighter, and more uniform, pattern than their 4 petal counterparts at long yardage from both of the guns I tested. If you have noticed, there are several choke mfgrs. that are currently producing a choke that will immediately strip the wad from the shot column as it exits the barrel. Al Ljutic put rings in the choked end of his barrels specifically for the same reason. The theory is that the sooner the wad is stripped from the shot column, the less chance there is for interference in the shot string by the wad. I also performed the same tests with the Jammer XL 1oz. wads with the same guns, with the same results. To carry it even further, a friend and I took 500 Blue Duster wads and cut the petals in 250 of them to give us an 8 petal wad. We patterned 50 of each from long yardage, and got the same results. In all the patterns we tested, the 8 petal wads outperformed the 4 petal ones. The original Windjammer wad had a patent that, as I understand, ran out not too long ago. As soon as that patent ran out, Downrange wads began to produce the 8 petal Jammer XL. Spolar also approached Downrange to produce an 8 petal wad specifically for them, with the "Spolar Gold" name on the wads. I'm sure Downrange and Spolar both knew what they were doing. I believe that Spolar recognized the effectiveness of the 8 petal wad and opted for it over the 4 petal one. I have shot the Spolar Gold wads in Annie Oakley's and fun shoots, and I can attest to their ability to hold a pattern at yardages far beyond the 27yd. line. In short, I shoot, and will continue to shoot, the original Windjammer 11/8oz because it has shown me to be better than the 4 petal wads...... Just my experience....Dan Thome (Trap2)
     
  9. mercedesman1981

    mercedesman1981 TS Member

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    Some great insight given. Thanks so much.

    Pat, You are correct and I misstated, Neil was checking for POI and not the pattern. What struck me as I was following his lead and also checking for POI but noticed I did not get the gaping hole in the paper he was getting with my full choke tube installed, hence prompting the question. My full choke pattern looks more like the modified (or IM) he used.

    I'm sure you have noticed by my questions I am new to this sport. When I started shooting at paper targets, I really didn't know how to aim the shotgun using two beads, nor how the adjustable comb worked, so I have been having a lot of fun learning. I have tried to adjust the comb such that I can shoulder the gun and sights for the figure - 8 view between the front and rear bead. It isn't as comfortable as what it sounds like it should be, but I'm getting there. I don't know of any stock fitters in my area (Seattle) so there is another challenge.

    ZZT, very interesting points made, thanks for your response. The factory 1 1/8oz of 7 1/2s loads I ran through the first time looked pretty lacey for full choke. Subsequent patterning with my 1oz 7 1/2 reloads at 1200fps were lacey too so I began to wonder about the wads as I am experimenting with those too. I really hate to add too many variables and try to stick to one variable at a time but it becomes tough when you don't really know what is a variable and what isn't!

    Also, I had no idea choke tubes would not shoot to the same POI or the POI could even be changed with a different tube. Thank you for pointing that out. Who is your favorite choke tube manufacturer?

    I will measure the tubes I have (all 3 are factory Browning) to see what I have and to help form a baseline. Something tells me I really don't have to worry too much about it yet as I am still on the 16yd line. I have noticed though, when I hit targets on center, the shatter but no ink-balls. When I started shooting skeet 30 some years ago, I used a full choke Citori. When the clays were hit on center, it looked like a flack cloud -nothing but dust. When I saw the term "ink-balls" in this forum, I expected the same but have not seen it yet.

    DRH8, thanks for the insight regarding different wads. I have been trying to stay with WAA12 or clones, and Remington and have yet to try the stitched Remington wads. Now I know to keep an eye on them as they can have an effect.

    Mike
     
  10. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    Mike, I've had very good luck with Briley. I know several people who swear by Wright's chokes. You only need three chokes for trap, so it pays to get good ones. The best are the ones made specifically for your gun.

    Since you are new to shooting and presumably shotshell reloading, stick with Win wads or clones for Winchester hulls and Rem wads for STS hulls. Windjammers from Windjammer, Spolar or DRM work excellently in STS hulls.
     
  11. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Use 1 1/8 oz of seven and an halfs and my system works and I hope that link specifies that. Of course different shot will act differently.

    zzt, I can't believe that you, with your experience, would write:"I knew I had Mod and Full minus .002" each." I have "full" which shoots little better than mod, mod (stock overbore Perazzi) which shoots full by any measurement. And they look at 13 yards as pellet count confirms at 40 yards.

    I'd sure like to see you Windjammer guys butress your discussion with pellet counts of ten targets so we'd know what you were basing your beliefs on.

    Neil
     
  12. mercedesman1981

    mercedesman1981 TS Member

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    Hi Neil and ZZT,

    Thanks for the comments. I sincerely appreciate them. I just measured my chokes, the full measures .038 and the IM measures .028 on my electronic digital caliper.

    I have been looking at Briley, 3 chokes needed, would that be M, IM and F, right? Since I already have ported barrels, I don't think I need ported choke tubes, True? I don't want Titanium, I doubt I could tell the difference between that and Stainless. It looks like the Spectrum Black Oxide should do the trick, but what would be the difference between the black oxide and standard Spectrum (beside $5.00), just the coating and how it looks? I am guessing the Spectrum product is better than the standard, is that also true? I suppose I could call them but I have talked to so many people trying to sell me a product or service lately I have lost much trust - and don't ever just cut down an Aspen tree,
    details available for the asking!

    I am kind of new to reloading. I did a lot of it 30 years ago and I am surprised at all the changes in components. I used to use a lot of Winchester components because I liked how the powder measured in my MEC 700-Versamec( at that time). Over the years and many moves, I somehow lost the reloader and just picked up a MEC Sizemaster on E-Bay with the idea of picking up a 9000 next year. The Ebay purchase was okay, you get what you pay for. The one I bought was supposed to be in "like new condition" but when it arrived I had to replace a few parts that were bent and could not have been bent from shipping. No way to tell from the photo's either. Remington is my other choice and I found I really like the Nitro's and STS cases. I have been using Clays, have seen a few bloopers (either insufficient powder or insufficient wad pressure) and currently I'm trying WST with 35lbs of wad pressure, Claybuster WAA12SL clone wad and Remington hulls with W209 primers. Thanks for the advice regarding WW hulls and wads and Remington hulls/wads. I have read a lot of negative comments regarding WW hulls hence the mismatch. I picked up a box of WW target loads though and will check them out. The hulls are gray for some reason, I liked the red ones and thought they had great crimps.

    I'm off the the pistol range to do some more pattern work. I want to double check the POI between chokes/same tube and POI between tubes. Thanks again for all the help.

    Mike
     
  13. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    Mike, my ideal chokes for trap are .016" in the U barrel, .024 in the O barrel and .032" in the single barrel. What you want is dependent on how you shoot.

    Neil, I haven't shot 12,314 barrels. Based on my experience, if I don't get 8% to 10% more than "nominal" for chokes .025" or tighter, there is a problem with the choke (or tube). So nominal for a .025" choke is 65% @ 40 yards. I've never owned an IM barrel or choke that did not deliver 75% with my trap loads. I'm not at all surprised one of your Perazzi Modified barrels shoots "Full" (70%). I am surprised one of your Perazzi Fulls shoots Modified. Sounds like a candidate for a barrel smith to me, assuming you called Perazzi and they didn't do anything about it..
     
  14. mercedesman1981

    mercedesman1981 TS Member

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    Hi Neal, zzt,

    Just got back from the range. At your suggestion, I checked both chokes for POI in the same barrels. The chokes were the same but what is distressing is the POI between Over and Under barrels. The Over barrel is centered, the Under barrel is about 1.5" to the left of center at 40 - 45 feet. How does one correct this problem? Can it be done with choke tubes?

    Thanks,

    Mike

    PS, I also checked my reloads, the WST is softer shooting but far dirtier using 1oz 7-1/2's and the Claybusters WAA12SL.
    ms
     
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